Anchoring : Who's liable for damage?

Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Anchoring in Newtown has usually been a bit of a drag,even when apparently well dug in, there are often voices in the night together with colourful adjectives to everybody in general......!!
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

One result of this little confrontation is that the disgruntled old man took off down stream and anchored well away from anywhere at first light. Five minutes later our friends in a 48' Cat anchored in the now open spot. Parties tonight me thinks /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Having learnt anchoring on the South Coast, perfecting it in the Caribbean (especially Chagaramus, Trinidad : 60 ft deep, 3 knot currents, back eddies, and a huge number of cruising boats) ... I have a pretty good idea what is safe and what is not. One picture remains firmly embedded in my mind : St Peter Port in Guernsey, the mooring field where every boat was bedecked with fenders and appeared to be slow-dancing cheek-to-cheek every day! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

One thing that's not been picked up so far, is the underlying cause of the damage?

So far the discussion seems to assume that damage is caused by anchoring too close (eg the boats 'meet' at change of tide). In that case, yes, it seems reasonable that the later boat to arrive is liable.

However, if the boats meet due to the first arrival dragging its anchor, I think that would shift the liability.

In practice, I guess there would be some element of contributory negligence in nearly all cases.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that's not been picked up so far, is the underlying cause of the damage?

So far the discussion seems to assume that damage is caused by anchoring too close (eg the boats 'meet' at change of tide). In that case, yes, it seems reasonable that the later boat to arrive is liable.

However, if the boats meet due to the first arrival dragging its anchor, I think that would shift the liability.

In practice, I guess there would be some element of contributory negligence in nearly all cases.

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If the first boat anchored "properly" but still dragged, it may not have been negligent.

I think everyone is insured, so any damage is sorted out by each owners insurance company, and the insurers would sort it out between themselves - the outcome, whether it went to court or not, would be a lottery.

Of course, either party is free to pursue the other for their excess if they can be bothered.

I guess my point is that it is a bit of a lottery.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Yes .... I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was wondering when that one would come up.

The problem here is that unless the boat dragged sufficiently to be seen .... i.e. going broadside to the wind, or some other obvious motion when compared to the rest of the anchorers .... I think it would be difficult to prove that one boat dragged as opposed to just straightening out their rode. Likewise it would not be possible to prove that it hadn't dragged.

There is another problem too. In places like Chagaramus, Trinidad, WI, there is plenty of junk on the bottom of the anchorage that may catch the rode ..... shortening and changing the swinging circle of the affected boat. It's not fun ..... and it's happened many times, but I have never found any boat significantly damaged by another at anchor in these low energy conditions during the wind v tide dance.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Surely it should be last in, first to move?

Watching arrivals in Arrecife last week I saw a globe-trotting sloop and then a monohull pick up moorings well apart - until a 50ft steel ketch anchored between them. He refused to move forcing them to move fenders and dinghies as buffers to minimise damage while eddies and williwaws drove them round in circles.

Que faire?
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

Good manors dictate the the last to arrive ensure that the boats will not meet at change of tide or wind. The problem is knowing how much scope the other party has put out.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

My dear friend, if you had ever been over to Cowes weeks Saturday night firework display and seen two or three THOUSAND boats lined up to watch the fireworks then you would not worry if there was one, two or three lengths between you and another boat. All get on fine but you will always find the odd one or two and 9 times out of 10 it is those who go out once a year and think they know it all. I have been fishing these waters for 35 years 5 days a week and they even ask me to move out of the way of there silly yachts even when I have 10 cables of trawl warp and nets dragging the sea bed. If I hit one just let them come out with the old bull of power giving way to sail crap and see who would win. Knowing your boat and having the experience of how your boat behaves is what good seamanship is all about and if you had anchored where you thought would be a safe place he cannot have any redress. If in doubt,, stick out a couple of fenders...
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

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My dear friend, if you had ever been over to Cowes weeks Saturday night firework display and seen two or three THOUSAND boats lined up to watch the fireworks then you would not worry if there was one, two or three lengths between you and another boat. All get on fine but you will always find the odd one or two and 9 times out of 10 it is those who go out once a year and think they know it all. I have been fishing these waters for 35 years 5 days a week and they even ask me to move out of the way of there silly yachts even when I have 10 cables of trawl warp and nets dragging the sea bed. If I hit one just let them come out with the old bull of power giving way to sail crap and see who would win. Knowing your boat and having the experience of how your boat behaves is what good seamanship is all about and if you had anchored where you thought would be a safe place he cannot have any redress. If in doubt,, stick out a couple of fenders...

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Absolutely correct!! We have to practice proper seamanship skills which one can't expect to obtain over-night by taking a RYA sailing course. We are responsible for our own actions and must put matters right if we get it wrong.

This anchoring scenario was the product of a poorly experienced cruiser who decided to try and bully me in leaving my position while the tide was changing and in poor light (21:30). If the anchor rodes aren't stretched and you're in poor light, you're at much greater risk by moving position than staying put. With 80' between us at worst and over 24 hrs at anchor, it seems to me that there was very little risk of collision during the night (which would only have happened during tide changes anyway).

As for yachties thinking that they have right of way ..... I was watching the Maltese Falcon enter under the Golden Gate Bridge. There was a yacht racing fleet in the same area that thought they had right of way through the 100's of spectator boats. One boat actually hit the Maltese Falcon, MF being on port and the yacht on starboard .... yes, the yacht claimed it was in the right! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

A couple of points.

Those who mount anchor watches are more likely to be in the right than those who don't.

Anchoring one's boat such that another vessel cannot raise its anchor is asking for trouble.

Given the local conditions, later arrivals should anchor out-of-line as well as provide adequate separation.

Willawaw = katabatic or falling wind (usually off mountains), can be very strong and sudden.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

I USED to think that the boat which arrived later carried the responsibility for making sure that the position and distances were appropriate for the location and conditionsbut NOT ANY MORE!!!!!
I have had so many instances of people anchoring too close or on top of my anchor that , if they don't respond to the usual shouting I up and leave; frustrating as this may be.
This is in keeping with general principle that IF YOU PERCEIVE THERE IS A DANGER THEN YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

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What is a williwaw??

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Downdrafts off high mountains. Read Joshua Slocum Sailing Alone Arond the World and the section when he was in Tierra del Fuego for an accurate descrition of just how bad they can be.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

[ QUOTE ]
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What is a williwaw??

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Downdrafts off high mountains. Read Joshua Slocum Sailing Alone Arond the World and the section when he was in Tierra del Fuego for an accurate descrition of just how bad they can be.

[/ QUOTE ]Scientifically a katabatic wind.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

2 boat lengths with two different boat configs is trusting your gear a bit too much. There is no g'tee that you'll both swing together.

As you are the 2nd boat - then I would assume onus is on you. 1st boat has not 'created' the situation.

As to his helm being over one way - My boat is like that at anchor / moored as well - to get the tiller out the way for cockpit socialising. Now I've mod'd the stock head I can lift it vertical but still put it to one side so that I can stop the rudder from moving about in the water movement. (Put vertical - I would have to lash it so hard to resist the twist - I'd probably cut into the lovely finish of the tiller. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

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Anchoring one's boat such that another vessel cannot raise its anchor is asking for trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, what is the "done thing" in those circumstances? When the later boat anchors so close that although you swing clear of each other, he is across your cable. You can't pull up to your anchor without ramming him.
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

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Quite right!.............but why are you telling me?...........You aren't one of those blue flaggers are you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Good God, NO! Well not unless SWMBOI has washed the Ensign with my jeans again.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Anchoring : Who\'s liable for damage?

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Quite right!.............but why are you telling me?...........You aren't one of those blue flaggers are you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good God, NO! Well not unless SWMBOI has washed the Ensign with my jeans again.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Ye Gods!!! I hope she hasn't, you could end up purple flagger!!!........EeeeeeeYuk! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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