Anchor chain/locker

[Neeves]

Having a ball a bit bigger than the pipe and weighted by the chain, which is hanging down inside the pipe is a simple idea - except that you would need to disengage the chain from the anchor and somehow attach the shackle to the ball and secure the anchor (so a simple idea that gets a bit complicated - but maybe Alan Lucas had a totally different retrieval system (I recall he had an old and traditional yacht and maybe no windlass).

I'm assuming your windlass is deck located, above deck, and near to bow.

I'd make a hat, like a winch cover, for the complete windlass that clips onto the chain and is tied with a waistband to the bottom of the windlass where it is secured to the deck. Better would be a fibre glass 'hat' but that's a bit complex - the sort of thing to do when it is raining in Perth (and as you don't have much rain it might not be made for months). Maybe an old saucepan or plastic bucket?

The chain will always be attached to the anchor and down the pipe and you really need something flexible (which is why I would think about a waterproof hat). Being a believer in belt and braces I'd also think of something like cutting up a swimming pool noodle or rubber plug (carved with a recess for the chain).

We do have water over the bow but our windlass is set aft, getting the weight nearer the mast, and our windlass is below deck.

Our anchor is sitting on the bow roller and the rode passes into and then under the deck, through the small locker and then to the windlass under the larger hatch to the right.




Our hawse pipe is horizontal (I assume still called a hawsepipe) and the chain passes through a small locker and the chain then passes to the windlass, located over the chain locker. Each of these lockers have flat bases sloping slightly aft with 1" drain holes in each aft corner. Our windlass is never swamped (as its in a locker) and anywhere the chain passes or is held has big drain holes.

This is a better view of the location of the bow roller and the small locker.




And, below, a view of the windlass, looking forward. We have lined the chain locker with rubber door mat which allows the chain to drain and the the mat has little pimples on its underside the water drains aft. The gear box oil sight glass is just to the left of where the chain drops to the locker base and a spring clip just to the right of the drop of the chain allows the shat to be lifted straight out (so not that difficult to service if you are supple . )

That's 75m of, very new, 6mm chain



Or, below, a different comparison - the two top buckets hold 50m of 8mm chain and the bottom 2 buckets hold 75m of 6mm chain. You make the same sort of volume savings if you downsize from 10mm to 8mm. The two chains have the same strength when new (I tested them).




Our windlass location and the route of the chain sounds all neat and gives us a trip free foredeck but is a devil to service the windlass as it is low down, and all the bits you need to service are even lower. For manual retrieval we have a extension for the winch handle.

If it were me - I'd make a hat for the windlass, making sure it is held very securely (the hat will take a lot of punishment) - maybe a couple of small rings on the aft part and tied to the chain forward. I'd take something flexible, like a noodle, or a rubber bung as well and cut to fit.

I appreciate that a multihull and monohull demand different solutions - I'm just sharing in case there is an overlap (or the multi owners see something of value.

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

Thanks for that Jon

By now I am used to making up fiberglass molds so I could knock it together one day and fiberglass it the next. I would hold it to the deck with over-center toggle clamps

Redirect Notice

 

[geem]

Jon

In a big sea how do you stop water flowing down the chain pipe? Any thoughts?

I think Alan Lucas (Yachtsman/Author) used to somehow attach a tennis ball to the end of the chain and use that as a plug.

Plug that Chain-pipe - Practical Sailor

On our windlass installation the Lofrans Fallon came with a hawse pipe upstand/ chain stripper. It stands about 80mm above the deck. This reduces the amount of water that would go down the hawse pipe. In addition we have a foam plug on a string that fits around the chain. We also have a sunbrella windlass cover we fit before sailing. The deck locker above the chain locker has a heavy lid that seals on to a hollow neoprene seal made by 3M. It's an expensive but water tight seal. The lid pulls down against this seal using a block and tackle and dyneema line that comes through a hole high up on the front bulkhead in the forepeak cabin. Since fitting the new hatch seal we don't get any water in the locker even in the roughest trip to weather when we will be taking green water over the deck

 

[geem]

Failure of design or not, it is what it is....

I am not going to change the deck layout that Hallberg Rassy put together 40 years ago...

I often contemplate some device to prevent it and I have read of people using "cones".

To sort the problem would probably require moving the bulkhead 12inches aft..which would have a knock on effect on the accomodations..

Giving it a poke when recovering is not really a big deal .

There is not much you can do if you have such a poor chain locker design. It seems very common to see people on the foredeck with a stick.
The need for designers to cram accomodation in to every inch of a boat is crazy. We were leaving an anchorage a few weeks ago when it was blowing 35 kts. The anchorage was quite crowded. We know we can pull the chain up reliably without the intervention of a stick. To me a stick adjustment of the chain in benign weather is just an inconvenience but when it's blowing it could be a safety thing. What do you do in such conditions singlehanded? It could get difficult very quickly

 

[dunedin]

I hauled the 80m of anchor chain up into the yacht today by hand. (The yacht is on the hard)
I was worried about the room the chain would take up in the locker but I needn't have worried.

When I was directing the chain down the "Chain pipe" (which is 3" nylon pipe) it sometimes "stuck" and other time flowed like an avalanche. I was also a bit concerned the chain didn't fall to the lowest part of the locker without a bit of coaxing.

But then wet anchor chain would behave quite a bit differently? (Is that wishful thinking?)

View attachment 133134

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly your chain locker looks a long way from the windlass, difficult to access, and below the waterline so cannot drain overboard. All factors which I would seek to avoid on a new build boat.
By contrast, I would like a a chain locker directly below the windlass, with access hatch to sort out any jams or chain buildup (which will happen) and a floor above the waterline so can drain water straight overboard. Then a watertight bulkhead behind it.
That’s what our boat was designed with and what I would want.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Apologies but I always think of this as failure of design. Anchor chain should not need human intervention. It should just go in to the locker and come out of the locker. Job done.

How hard can it be to to design a space to do this?

Very hard if the designers of my last 3 yachts are an example, Macwester, Westerly then LM. Access pipe offset from line of chain and pointing astern while chain tries to come from the other side etc. Maybe its easier on bigger boats but I would not bet on it.

 

[pandos]

There is not much you can do if you have such a poor chain locker design. It seems very common to see people on the foredeck with a stick.
The need for designers to cram accomodation in to every inch of a boat is crazy. We were leaving an anchorage a few weeks ago when it was blowing 35 kts. The anchorage was quite crowded. We know we can pull the chain up reliably without the intervention of a stick. To me a stick adjustment of the chain in benign weather is just an inconvenience but when it's blowing it could be a safety thing. What do you do in such conditions singlehanded? It could get difficult very quickly

It's not really such a big issue...
If leaving an anchorage in 35 knots of wind I'd probably make sure that when I had a lot of the scope in that I had a big hole in the chain to accommodate the remaining.

To be honest it is unlikely that I would choose to leave an anchorage in 35 knots of wind...or 34 or 33 ....

 

[geem]

Deleted

 

[geem]

It's not really such a big issue...
If leaving an anchorage in 35 knots of wind I'd probably make sure that when I had a lot of the scope in that I had a big hole in the chain to accommodate the remaining.

To be honest it is unlikely that I would choose to leave an anchorage in 35 knots of wind...or 34 or 33 ....

So what would you do if your anchor was dragging in 35kts?

 

[pandos]

So what would you do if your anchor was dragging in 35kts?

As I said
I would not choose...to leave...
For what I might do... see my previous..

 

[geem]

As I said
I would not choose...to leave...
For what I might do... see my previous..

But if it was dragging you would have to lift it? Your choices would be limited. Simply saying it could be a safety issue. Designers should pay more attention to this kind of design aspect on yachts. Sticks to arrange chain in an undersized locker should not be a given as it seems to be in lots of yachts

 

[Tranona]

But if it was dragging you would have to lift it? Your choices would be limited. Simply saying it could be a safety issue. Designers should pay more attention to this kind of design aspect on yachts. Sticks to arrange chain in an undersized locker should not be a given as it seems to be in lots of yachts

The vast majority of buyers of modern mass produced yachts do not anchor seriously. Designers and builders address their buyers' needs which may not be the same as yours. They are perfectly capable of designing better anchor lockers but it comes at a cost to their other design priorities. In the 20 years of owning Bavarias with poor anchor lockers (but better than the average) never had a problem with pausing and pushing down the pile of chain. The important thing is that the lockers are open at the top and you are standing tight above it when operating the windlass so it really is no big deal. Different if your chain disappears down a hawse into a below deck locker which you can't access from on deck when clearly you don't want any build up. New boat has the locker well back from the bows where it is deep and a good fall from deck level. Downside is a chute running through the forward berth - or in the case of my version with only one berth rather than 2 alongside at just below knee level. As ever good design in one area leads to compromises in others on smaller boats with space restrictions.

 

[Neeves]

Sorry but I'm with Geem

Safety at Sea: Surviving a Powerful Storm in the Med

This was in the Med, where condition are meant to be balmy and a Bav/Jen/Ben must be the norm.

Its a pity there was never a similar summary article on the Scillies storm recently - but if there were an article it would be word for word the same as the one I link. The wise retreated to better shelter but the less well initiated (?) stayed put with disastrous consequences - and another ideal location to see a collection of Ben/Jen/Bav (speaking in complete ignorance of the people there ).

There is no mention of the use of a pole to knock over a tower - and worse if the chain is towering in the forepeak - but not something you really want to deal with when you are dragging or the yacht upwind is dragging.

I think the idea of owners of smaller, say sub 40', Jen/Ben/Bav not making serious passages might be right - but for most people its all they can buy that their wife likes and a cruise to the Scillies would be an ideal test - before relocating to the Med. Many old yachts, available in the UK, are built for the UK climate and are uncomfortable in the Med - but where do people want to cruise....?

There was thread very recently where the design characteristics of Ben/Jen/Bav were lauded for their focus on warm weather locations and British designs criticised for being designed for UK conditions...... pity about the anchor/chain lockers being that bit of the yacht left over when all the accomodation was squeezed in.

I confess we are wimps - when serious bad weather is forecast - we move. Bragging rights do not impress me.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[geem]

The vast majority of buyers of modern mass produced yachts do not anchor seriously. Designers and builders address their buyers' needs which may not be the same as yours. They are perfectly capable of designing better anchor lockers but it comes at a cost to their other design priorities. In the 20 years of owning Bavarias with poor anchor lockers (but better than the average) never had a problem with pausing and pushing down the pile of chain. The important thing is that the lockers are open at the top and you are standing tight above it when operating the windlass so it really is no big deal. Different if your chain disappears down a hawse into a below deck locker which you can't access from on deck when clearly you don't want any build up. New boat has the locker well back from the bows where it is deep and a good fall from deck level. Downside is a chute running through the forward berth - or in the case of my version with only one berth rather than 2 alongside at just below knee level. As ever good design in one area leads to compromises in others on smaller boats with space restrictions.

I think you views are influenced by your experience of sailing the Med. In the Caribbean anchoring is the norm. Marinas are few and far between. We see on a regular basis the stick in the chain locker. There are plenty of Bav, Jen Ben based over in the Caribbean that spend the whole season at anchor. They just have to learn to use a stick. We also see appalling anchor practice but that is a whole new thread

 

[Neeves]

We also see appalling anchor practice but that is a whole new thread

Ooooh, goody its about time we had a meaty anchor thread!


But more seriously

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

In my picture in post 21 the fairly generous size of the locker is obvious, its got 75m of 6mm chain with space to spare. What is not obvious (and I never thought to take a picture) is that its shallow and when we used 8mm chain the tower of chain would build quickly and jamb the fall of the chain, we used a broom handle, without the broom. Note that the fall of the chain from the windlass to the pile of chain is pretty small - it does not take long for a tower to jamb the windlass. Part of the issues was that as the chain lost its gal it began to rust and the corrosion made towering worse as the chain would not flow. You can see the state of the chain in the two buckets also in Post 21. We had decided earlier that we needed new chain but it took some time to organise the new 6mm - hence it is really grotty when we eventually changed it. I confess I tried to eke out its life by painting it - that might have made it worse. The new chain flows much more easily, as the gal coating has polished. This is one advantage of stainless chain - it flows much more easily - it and our new chain will still tower but not so severely.

Problems of chain towering are exacerbated as 'someone' : company commissioning, boat builder, owner decides to up size the chain from 6mm to 8mm or 8mm to 10mm and the locker that was built for 6mm (or 8mm) has to now accomodate more bulk. Its not all the fault of the boat builder - why there is this very common trait to have oversized (and over weighted) chain is a complete mystery - especially on a lightweight AWB (call it a BavJenBen) where all the excess weight has been squeezed out by the accountants where the absence of weight in the bow would be an asset.

For example why was this 25' yacht equipped with 8mm chain? Its in Australia, specifically Tasmania - you can tell from the tannin stain at the water line, half way through its circumnavigation - anchoring all the way.



The owners have seen the light and will receive their new 75m x 6mm chain next week.

sy L’Envol

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

I think you views are influenced by your experience of sailing the Med. In the Caribbean anchoring is the norm. Marinas are few and far between. We see on a regular basis the stick in the chain locker. There are plenty of Bav, Jen Ben based over in the Caribbean that spend the whole season at anchor. They just have to learn to use a stick. We also see appalling anchor practice but that is a whole new thread

One of the Hallberg Rassy yachts (HR45?) has a chain locker below the WL which drains into the bilge so the concept can't be all that bad.
As has been said before yachts are a compromise.

I can very well see the advantage of having a chain locker below the winch and above the WL. Having 120kg further away from the pointy end has to be good and 120kg down low has to be an advantage as far as righting moment is concerned.

 

[Neeves]

The best place for chain must be at the mast - the problem is getting it there and if this is solved where it will drain to.

The yachts that fairly consistently have the chain centralised, and its the chain that is the predominate weight, are catamarans (and presumably trimarans). There is no reason why chain should not be routed and located in a channel in the foredeck of mono hulls, many lines are now hidden in the deck or coach roof, but this does not solve what you do with the drainage of the wet chain. The other factor is that the designer of a mono wants the space where the chain would need to be stored (just forward of the mast) for accomodation.

This is a large charter Lagoon at Santorini with a Spade anchor. The windlass is at the aft of the foredeck, out of focus and hidden behind the headsail furler. I took the picture to show what a complete waste of time swivels are. The swivel is attached directly to the slot in the anchor shank and the twists in the chain, that swivels are supposed to remove, are clearly seen between swivel and windlass.




and another Lagoon, different model to the previous one (above), better showing the windlass location and a covered channel to accept the rode. The rode will be located in the nacelle under the bridge deck and will simply drain straight 'outside' through a drain hole.



Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I was not aware that YM had made a summary of the storm in the Scillies

Storm tactics at anchor: Surviving gales in Scilly - Yachting Monthly

I have not seen the article referenced here on YBW

And this is our, YBW's, report from people who there (or chose to move to somewhere more quiet)

Many riding out Storm Evert in the Scillies ?

Jonathan

 

[blush2]

Yes I've often read that the chain may need a helping hand as the chain is taken in but that would be very easy as I've installed a PVC 15in. X 15in. hatch under a "V" berth mattress to give access to the chain. (Maybe it is a fault in the design of the yacht but how can I overcome that?)

Our boat is an ex-racer and had no chain locker when we bought her. Initially we dropped the chain into the wet locker just forward of the mast, having installed a fishing rod holder with integral bung by way of a hawse pipe. All hauling was by hand (on a forty footer). As we were going off long distance this was not the easiest way of doing things so we converted the small space at the front of the forward cabin into a chain locker and installed an electric windlass. There is a hatch into the locker from the cabin which allows the chain to be knocked down when it pyramids. Always use some kind of prodder and keep your hands out of the locker.

My husband sometimes anchors when single handing. To assist him he added a remote control for the windlass, the ones recovery trucks use for loading cars. As it is unlikely we will ever use less than 15m chain, there is a distinctive mark painted on it. He can go below and wind in the chain remotely and knock it down until he can see the mark, at which point the rest of the chain will stow without a problem and he can come on deck to finish off and stow the anchor.