Analogue v digital meters on console - back to the future

[george unthank]

jfm
I don't have a fm
Read above - mine is a mixed stew system - something old something new -like in the song
(Something borrowed , something blue)

 

[george unthank]

Nigel
I looked up your link and shivered . I don't know if it has one .
Plessey indulge me . Where would it be .
We could be on to something here .
Then again if I found it ...........what do I do with it
Presumably I plug it into a computer , but if Volvo don't sell software for the EVC s where are we then ,?

 

[george unthank]

jpx
Isn't this the whole point Volvo have high jacked not just the corner of the market here - but the entire market squares ?
I would regard you as a professional gentleman and competent in your trade.
It scares me that people like you are flummoxed , deliberately by people like you .
Don't you think there's a. con-job going on here ?
And its all at the owners expense

 

[jfm]

My fuel gauge on the dash is frequently in conflict with analogue .

Not a surprise if they share same sender but are not calibrated, or use different senders.

The depths given on my GPS is frequently different to the analogue reading on the dash

?? GPS - I'm guesssing you mean chartplotter display or MFD. Can you post a picture of your analogue depth read out? What transducer is it using - the same one as the "GPS"/chartplotter? Is the analogue depth display one of those spinning arm/LED jobs?

I don't have a separate manual for Farina ( spell ?) EVC system which was installed in my boat . it seems almost as if the EVC was added as an afterthought

Generally in this thread, are we talking about Volvo's EVC system? What is Farina? You couldn't possibly think Volvo's own EVC is an afterthought - it is a j1939 engine control system that is absolutely integral to the engine package. Are you talking here about something else - something other than Volvo's EVC?

That's my beef Why did they do this .- To retain all post purchase services unto Volvo exclusively ?

Yup. See post 18

 

[jfm]

And its all at the owners expense

Or is it? See #18. Arguably Volvo have brought down the cost of boating significantly.

 

[julians]

Juliana
If you had any clarification on this point and could possibly unearth the'' how to '' guide re EVCs and if you could possibly steer me in the direction of any data relating to this I would be most grateful

What generation of EVC do you have?

See here for a video showing how to get the fault codes for EVC-C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLuvnhKtcH8

or if you dont have the multifunction display then see page 105 of the manual below - this is for the d4, but I would expect the d3 to be similar

http://pie.volvopenta.com/ViewFileF...403&d=Owners Publication&s=5932405&lang=en-GB

Fault codes for the d4 are listed on pages 107 - 113

 

[julians]

Or is it? See #18. Arguably Volvo have brought down the cost of boating significantly.

They may have brought down the initial cost of entry - although thats debateable, but the ongoing maintenance costs have probably increased.

 

[James L]

They may have brought down the initial cost of entry - although thats debateable, but the ongoing maintenance costs have probably increased.

Well, your day to day maintenance costs won't have changed, probably reduced as the engine is no longer as over engineered you probably need less oil, cheaper filters etc. Of course not all these savings will be passed on to you.
Also you should use less fuel.

However when you have a problem, you now need a volvo technician. They plug in the diagnostics and 60 seconds later have a fair idea what's wrong. Traditionally, a mechanic would go through the steps in the factory manual, get to the part where you start replacing stuff and keep replacing parts until it starts to work. Of course you might get lucky and the first part fixes it, or it might be the last. Or you might find a good mechanic that has seen this before and has a good idea where to start.
Makes life more difficult for the DIYers but much easier for Volvo, as in they can hire cheaper mechanics as they need less specialized knowledge other than how to use the tool.

I'm a Software Engineer and I know well how flaky some software can be, but at least you have the option to turn it off and on again. I have also worked on systems where we had to prove it would theoretically run for 100 Million hours without an error. How reliable or not software is, has more to do with the priorities of the manufacturer than any limitations of software itself. And usually the hardware running it is the weak spot when you're talking about an engine sitting in the damp year in year out.
If the error is still present after turning it off and on again, you either have a real problem or an issue with some sensor. Remember these errors are there to protect the engine, a problem that in the past would have caused the engine to blow up may now be found before major damage has occured. So before cursing the error, find out what it means and maybe it has saved you a big bill.

Having said all that, when buying a used boat, I would still prefer the old smelly engines as rightly or wrongly I think they will handle any abuse by former owners better.

 

[spannerman]

Well, your day to day maintenance costs won't have changed, probably reduced as the engine is no longer as over engineered you probably need less oil, cheaper filters etc. Of course not all these savings will be passed on to you.
Also you should use less fuel.

However when you have a problem, you now need a volvo technician. They plug in the diagnostics and 60 seconds later have a fair idea what's wrong. Traditionally, a mechanic would go through the steps in the factory manual, get to the part where you start replacing stuff and keep replacing parts until it starts to work. Of course you might get lucky and the first part fixes it, or it might be the last. Or you might find a good mechanic that has seen this before and has a good idea where to start.
Makes life more difficult for the DIYers but much easier for Volvo, as in they can hire cheaper mechanics as they need less specialized knowledge other than how to use the tool.
.

You are correct that there is less maintenance now, no valves to adjust on D3/4/6 engines, but totally wrong about hiring cheaper mechanics. Volvo Penta now require all mechanics in its dealer network to have passed a series of exams as of Dec last year, I know as I have done them all and some. Having been on numerous factory courses I have seen many mechanics go glassy eyed trying to understand how EVC works and how to diagnose it when it has faults. I had a head start as I sold Sun/Snap-On diagnostic equipment for 10 yrs to the entire motor trade and every manufacturer has their own version of 'EVC' . And having trained hundreds of mechanics in my sales patch which was Devon/Dorset/Somerset I know that in every workshop there is usually only one person who has any real interest in electronic fault finding, the rest prefer work with a hammer and big screwdriver, sadly these are more and more out of touch with modern engines as everything is run using multiple ECU's now which talk to each other using a Can Bus network or similar depending on the manufacturer, most sensors and ECU's are either Bosch or Japanese with a few lesser names thrown in. But every manufacturer Volvo included writes their own software to suit their application and although there are generic code readers for the car world there aren't any for the marine industry as they don't have to build to OBD II specs, so don't have a common interface.
All the mechanics where I work can plug in a Vodia and read off a fault code, but that is only a small part of its function, the real skill is in using the Live Data pages and driving the boat and interpreting the data coming from the engine under different situations, or if it won't start diagnosing what signal you are missing, but that requires an in depth understanding of how a common rail injection system actually works and that is down to how interested the mechanic is, or whether he is happy just spinning oil filters all his life and there are plenty of those in the trade.
In the dealers I know there is always one guy who is good with a Vodia and he gets sent on the problem jobs. And he gets payed pretty well, I know as I am responsible for the whole Vodia system at the dealer where I work, and we don't waste our time or money sending out a guy with 'less specialised knowledge', as we know we will only have to go back with someone who can do the job.

 

[James L]

You are correct that there is less maintenance now, no valves to adjust on D3/4/6 engines, but totally wrong about hiring cheaper mechanics. Volvo Penta now require all mechanics in its dealer network to have passed a series of exams as of Dec last year, I know as I have done them all and some. Having been on numerous factory courses I have seen many mechanics go glassy eyed trying to understand how EVC works and how to diagnose it when it has faults. I had a head start as I sold Sun/Snap-On diagnostic equipment for 10 yrs to the entire motor trade and every manufacturer has their own version of 'EVC' . And having trained hundreds of mechanics in my sales patch which was Devon/Dorset/Somerset I know that in every workshop there is usually only one person who has any real interest in electronic fault finding, the rest prefer work with a hammer and big screwdriver, sadly these are more and more out of touch with modern engines as everything is run using multiple ECU's now which talk to each other using a Can Bus network or similar depending on the manufacturer, most sensors and ECU's are either Bosch or Japanese with a few lesser names thrown in. But every manufacturer Volvo included writes their own software to suit their application and although there are generic code readers for the car world there aren't any for the marine industry as they don't have to build to OBD II specs, so don't have a common interface.
All the mechanics where I work can plug in a Vodia and read off a fault code, but that is only a small part of its function, the real skill is in using the Live Data pages and driving the boat and interpreting the data coming from the engine under different situations, or if it won't start diagnosing what signal you are missing, but that requires an in depth understanding of how a common rail injection system actually works and that is down to how interested the mechanic is, or whether he is happy just spinning oil filters all his life and there are plenty of those in the trade.
In the dealers I know there is always one guy who is good with a Vodia and he gets sent on the problem jobs. And he gets payed pretty well, I know as I am responsible for the whole Vodia system at the dealer where I work, and we don't waste our time or money sending out a guy with 'less specialised knowledge', as we know we will only have to go back with someone who can do the job.

That's interesting - I guess as a developer we always think everyone will be super excited about the new feature we added for them and don't realise a lot of people just don't care, and want to get on with doing their job the same way they always did.

Does the Vodia tool and all the electronics actually save you time, or would you be able to diagnose problems on engines with no electronics more easily?

In your experience is there a difference in the lifespan of Mechanical or Electronic Diesels in boats? Does one take lack of care better than the other?

 

[spannerman]

The Vodia does save time in that it will give very specific info on a fault code, with a reference code which you then refer to the EVC 'bible' which then shows you how to check the voltages that should be present to or from a sensor which colour wire voltage/resistance values etc. a competent electrician could do this with a multimeter but it would take longer unless you know exactly which sensor has gone down.
A non electronic engine just needs diesel, cooling water and a battery to start it, with those 3 things it will run for a long time, think older trucks and taxis.
A common rail engine needs all those plus it is reliant on multiple sensors to give the ECU the relevant data for it to calculate the correct amount of diesel and injection timing and control of VNT turbos according to the demand placed on the engine. The old mechanical injection pump did most of that without any electricity.
Obviously an electronically controlled engine should start and run more cleanly and be more economical, and this is what has driven this technology the emission regulations demand ever lower emissions which the older engines couldn't achieve that's why they have been superseded, if a manufacturer can't meet the targets he can't sell the engines in Europe and the US. So we have seen a progression from mechanical injection to electronically governed injection pumps to totally electronically controlled common rail systems.
Its still early days to day whether an electronic diesel will last longer than a mechanical diesel, the manufacturing tolerances and techniques are better now so mechanically the engine should be as good if not better, but there are a lot more peripherals that can cause problems, basically everything electrical that is hung on the engine, saltwater and electricity don't get on too well. We have removed a number of D4 and 6 motors because unattended saltwater leaks have got into the EVC harness and wiped it out, which requires engine removal to replace the entire harness and sensors. The sensors run on 5v so it doesn't take much corrosion to create a high resistance which affects the sensor signal.
In theory an electronic diesel if well maintained should give as good service, and because the EVC system is watching over various engine parameters it won't self destruct due to overheating, lack of oil pressure or water in the diesel, but you are totally dependant on having battery power available, while an older diesel will keep going until it runs out of fuel.
The unmanned lighthouse around the coast used Gardner diesels which ran for months on end with no maintenance as these are low revving engines, whereas the marine world demands high output low weight engines with 'relatively' good economy that also have to meet strict emission requirements, this can only be achieved by electronic control, so we have been forced to go the same way the car manufacturers did back in the early 90's with the introduction of catalytic converters, and now Mercruiser and Volvo are producing marine petrol engines with converters on them due to emission demands.
We have a taxi boat operator which does the school run for the kids on the islands and one of his boats has the highest engine hours recorded for a D12 IPS installation so Volvo are using him as a real time test rig, last summer they came with a truck and some engineers and in one day they removed both engines and IPS units and fitted new ones, FOC as they took the old units back to Sweden for evaluation, so far the engines have given little trouble but I have replaced the aft deck manouvering position electronic throttle unit twice due to water ingress, so that is work in progress for VP.
Its an interesting subject and there is always some new development so we are always learning, but as you say it prevents DIY.

 

[george unthank]

A most illuminating contribution . Thank you
I even understood most of it !- and I don't men] an to be flippant here >
Did you own the taxi boat, ?
How many hours had she run up ?
Did you do the maintenance world yourself ?
And this brings ne to rtfm and DIY
Not. All fm are reader friendly - they all assume the reader knows the trade jargon , whereas most boaters are put off at the sight of a second unidentifiable term. And they won't be in the glossary .
I am the worst in this regard . I will walk part of the road with any one , like Mrs Murphy's dog , but when we're suddenly into acronyms and esoteric mechanical language I retire .
Yes ! the argument could well be made that if I don't have a basic knowledge of the basic terms I shouldn't be let near an engine with anything other than cotton buds.
To each his own- I will say -
My education was in medicine - these people are professionals in mechanical engineering . I suppose you could accuse my former profession with the use of complex verbiage , but most try to explain what they have diagnosed , despite the average consulting time in a GP's surgery now to be 8 mins !
But if you don't like the cut of my jib , there is a GP next door or a few doors away in. Most urban areas - a little more scattered in rural areas - but not as in assessable as Volvo pent engineers in the W of Ireland .
And that there is my hang -up .
When a fault code such as the one I've been banging on about appears , I am stranded until I get an appointment with one of these erudite gentlemen , Then cones the consultation day . and finally some 20 something pale skinned lad will delicately climb aboard with the petrified look of the non mariner and cleverly plug something into something and play a little with his laptop under the shield of high secrecy , as if he were on te=he Manhattan PROJECT and voilà ! '' try it now '' -AND it works AND you fork out € 150-200 and he's gone with his bag of conjurer tricks in the boot of his BMW coupe .
And me and people like me are still looking into the engine like geese looking at thunder (as they say here ) never any the wiser , and never given the basic forensic pathology of how what happened did happen and whether it would happen again - because the same Nigel or Rick ( depending on which of the Atlantic you hail from ) - he will not pass your way again .
AND with the next problem I start down this tortuous route once more !
Just lile they have some clothes stores for ''out-sized people'' they should have left a small % of diesel engines unaltered . - without pumps , EVC s and functioning like a reliable old gun dog on diesel , water and a battery ( do you need a battery ?) - for the coterie of boaters who just choose to remain behind the main stream
I am not convinced we had to go down this route . its fine for trains . they tend to have armies of backup services. But I get a CHECK ENGINE alert in the middle of the lake ,I have to drop anchor , and hope some passing angler will give me a tow to the nearest pier. And my problems have not even begun yet ... I have yet to make an appointment for thst consultation and so on

 

[jfm]

...a fault code such as the one I've been banging on about ...

If you actually read the fault code (the LEDs, not the "check engine" light) rather than banging on about its existence you might come to love your electronic engine

 

[spannerman]

The taxi boat is one of our customers, there are dozens here in the Norwegian fjords so people and kids can get to work/school from the islands they live on. I don't remember the engine hours as they did their own servicing. Not quite sure what you mean in your 3rd question, but if you mean am I in the maintenance world then yes, I started with Volvo cars in the 80's, then a spell on aircraft, then technical sales selling Vodia type equipment, then 20 yrs ago when I moved to Norway I started with Volvo Penta and have worked on VP, Mercruiser and Yanmar, from 2.5 to 1200 HP petrol engines and diesels up to 2400 HP MTU as I worked for the Princess importer for Norway and had responsibility a 95ft Princess, it was on charter so there was usually 2 full days work each week on that keeping everything shipshape. I have always said yes to every factory course going as I like to have knowledge, but I have had enough of servicing so have specialised in trouble shooting the electrical side, repowers, instrument panel upgrades, and am a certified installer for Raymarine and Simrad. , I also rebuild Volvo and Mercruiser drives as its more brain than brawn. So have a modest amount of experience but always willing to learn as boats can be a real headache sometimes as VolvoPaul will confirm, the worst jobs are electrical faults as they can take hours to pinpoint but minutes to fix, then you have to justify the hours you have used, but it keeps the old grey cells active and that's why I like it as each fault is different, and if it is something you have seen before then its fixed very quickly and the customer thinks you are a hero, as that's the main difference between the car and marine industry, if your car isn't ready, you can either have a loan car or rent one, but you don't get that option with boats so its someone's weekend or holiday ruined.
I understand your frustration as DIY boaters now feel locked out when it comes to fixing their engine, but its the same with cars, outboards, inboards, in the past everyone knew someone who could fix their engine, but the days of your uncle tinkering with a screwdriver are long gone, now you need a Vodia type tool to interrogate the system, then when its pointed you in the right direction you can get on with the repair, which now seldom involves dismantling the engine but just replacing a faulty sensor or wiring connector. In the old days you could in medical parlance be a G.P. type mechanic and fix most things, now you have to be a Specialist and have an in depth knowledge of the system, the parts are so expensive you have to be right first time as electrical components can't easily be returned once fitted.

 

[george unthank]

I'M sorry
Let me try again to make it abundantly clear . I get a CHECK ENGINE alert - That's it !
I can not get past this message . it scrolls on to the next page which deals with '' pressure in the trim''
Sure ,if I could unearth the fault code I wouldn't be banging on in double Dutch .

 

[jfm]

OK but you have to get to the fault codes. The "check engine" light is generic and isn't a fault code. The fault code on Volvo might be read from flashing leds, a screen readout, rotary encoder, etc, depending on which version of EVC you have

I am assuming here that we are talking here about Volvo EVC - something you haven't confirmed despite being asked. If you just tell us whether you have EVC-A, B or C, that would be a lot of help as regards telling you how to get the fault codes. There is loads of help that people can give you on here but you have to help yourself a bit and give us some basic data, or photos of your dashboard, instead of just ranting and wanting the world to move backyards 25 years

Maybe I'm misunderstanding though! Do you (a) actually want to fix the problem? Or (b) just chat about how hard it is to fix electronic stuff and how nice it was when everything was mechanical?. My head is in "a" but if the correct answer is "b" I'm happy to shut up

As a guess, because you said "scroll to next page", it sounds like EVC-C. See this, which relates ONLY to EVC-C. If your hardware doesn't look like this and you don't have the rotary encoder on the Volvo button panel then you do not have EVC-C

 

[george unthank]

spannerman
You've dealt with all my queries perfectly . But it brings me back to accessibility to a Volvo electrics specialist . I simply cant track one down . My car mechanic , who is Mercedes trained , Also Porches and others and is unfazed by any problems I present him with - he recoiled when I presented him with my d3 problem .
He wanted to run a mile from it , and he is otherwise a most obliging sort ,
I know there's a big argument about not letting land- engineers near marine engineers . I just don't have that range of choice .
So while my man is by no means a |DIY operator , he doesn't have the software on his computer to track down the problem . He says he can't attach his computer to the'' computer plug''-
WHEREVER that is located .
I get the impression he doesn't want to touch it .
]Whiter then ?
I take your points above , but I am still pining for the old days and the. Days of golden apples and never ending sunshine , and mackerel fishing off the rocks at full tide !!
And like everyone else I have many stories about the SEAGULL engine - They came in 1 , 1.5 and 2 HP engines - do you remember them ?
Whenever they broke down you came in from fishing .lit a bonfire, a few sausages , cup of strong tea , You dismantled the engine , which comprised a flywheel , a plug and a propeller . you stuck the plug in the bonfire for 4 - 5 seconds and reassembled and wrapped the cord round the fly wheel and chugged - off she went . No one ever took them to a mechanic - Even I could make a contribution with the Seagull - and the lake seemed so massive back then . Now we all use 15 HP and everywhere is so..near - so much the pity
Could I entice you to write some thing on a new rant I have about Volvo Punta d3 diesel engines ?
You are just the man I need to comment here a.Please visit forum . I would value your opinion.
BTW Do you live in Norway ?

 

[Chris_d]

Its not hard is it Life is so much easier these days, its probably just a dodgy connection somewhere, but now you don't have to pay some mechanic who knows nothing about electricity a weeks labour to find it!

 

[george unthank]

jfm
Thank you for this ( I'll grin and bear the insults - but I'm good at that )
No ! my EVC system is nothing like this.
I'll will have to post a picture of them
There are 2 screens , each the size if a matchbox -'' faria ''- ? could be name of make - i'll get that too. The sEVC S are fitted over an on to the console , as what appear to be extras or afterthoughts
So back to my 2 matchbox screens . They are built in to the console of the regal 2565 dash and sit side by side with the old analogue dials .
The one on the left is kept as fuel gauge ONLY -MODE . there is a clock and other wonderful things , but I leave it on FUEL- And sitting just beside it is the analogue fuel gauge - and as said they rarely concur.
The matchbox on the right I keep in on screen reading MPG and engine hours (total ) - This too has many other screens . but I can't hold them down like yours . They flit from one screen to the second next by passing the one you want . With regard to extracting any info re the CHECK ENGINE there is nowhere to go. Hence my problem
I will gladly accept that I am a clumsy uninformed boater but I am sincere when I request help .
Now you have given generously of your time and endeavour to me , and it would appear that its all become a bit trying to you .
I thank you for your contributions .
With regard to your choices of a or b above its obviously mostly a , but as you detect a whiff of b , I wild concede that that's there too.
You will be relieved to know I have gone elsewhere to bang on even more about Volvo d3
Do join me
But leave the tetchiness at home if you would ; it is unbecoming - which is not to retract one iota . from my appreciation and gratitude

 

[julians]

George - just take a damn photo of the dashboard and engine, or at least tell us how old the boat is.


Did you read this that I posted earlier.

or if you dont have the multifunction display then see page 105 of the manual below - this is for the d4, but I would expect the d3 to be similar

http://pie.volvopenta.com/ViewFileFr...405&lang=en-GB

Fault codes for the d4 are listed on pages 107 - 113
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-back-to-the-future/page3#OIYZTRpdqLL38698.99

Do you have the small panel with the lights that the manual above is referring to?

You're not helping yourself here - you just keep going on about how you know nothing about engines,computers, and how everything modern is rubbish etc, referring to all people who write software/work with computers as nerds in the derogatory sense etc. I suspect you'll find a fair few people on here work in IT (like me) in some form and may take offence at some point

Give the people here the info they are asking for and you may get some help. Carry on ranting and people will start to ignore you.

As others have said its probably not a big problem, you need to help us to help you.