An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!?

[longjohnsilver]

Seastoke, what makes it so good for me is the figures that they claim on the paper about consumption and max speed. I want to see these figures by my own eyes. I also think that she looks quite nice!

I have to agree that the video is awful, but that means nothing.

However as an owner of a traditional trawler yacht I have to say that this is most certainly not a trawler yacht. It might be a very nice planing boat, and very effective and efficient, but it's not a trawler yacht in the traditional sense. A trawler yacht is a displacement boat (how many fishing boats are planing ?) with good sea keeping characteristics and most definitely not a planing boat. They are, I believe, based on a Maine lobster type vessel, our displacement.

That's not to say that this boat is anything but exciting, comfortable and fast, as well as being duel efficient. But it's not a trawler yacht in the tradional sense.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Seastoke, what makes it so good for me is the figures that they claim on the paper about consumption and max speed. I want to see these figures by my own eyes. I also think that she looks quite nice!

I have to agree that the video is awful, but that means nothing.

However as an owner of a traditional trawler yacht I have to say that this is most certainly not a trawler yacht. It might be a very nice planing boat, and very effective and efficient, but it's not a trawler yacht in the traditional sense. A trawler yacht is a displacement boat (how many fishing boats are planing ?) with good sea keeping characteristics and most definitely not a planing boat. They are, I believe, based on a Maine lobster type vessel, our displacement.

That's not to say that this boat is anything but exciting, comfortable and fast, as well as being duel efficient. But it's not a trawler yacht in the tradional sense.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Maybe we need a new name for this sort of vessel, like the way the motor industry came up with 'Sports Utility Vehicle' for lifestyle 4x4's - maybe 'Sports Utility Boat'... oh, wait a minute, that might not work....

 

[Bouba]

I think that if the windows up front are closer to vertical than horizontal then it's a trawler

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Eren, I am very interested in your impressions of the seatrial. I also looked over the Sirena 64 (and the Magellano 66) at Dusseldorf and was rather impressed by her although I thought the fit and finish inside was a bit inferior to the Magellano 66. Having said that the Sirena is considerably cheaper. Personally I take claims about fuel saving with a pinch of salt. According to the specs, the S64 is about 6t lighter than the M66 and if there is any difference in the fuel consumption it will probably be down to that because AFAIK the hulls are similar in design

 

[MapisM]

it's not a trawler yacht in the tradional sense.

LJS, of course I agree - in fact, I'm the one who raised this semantic issue, sort of.
But at risk of appearing too radical, I think that also introducing the concept of "traditional" vs. "modern" (or whatever) trawlers is not correct.
A trawler is one of the simplest vessels known to mankind: a powerboat designed to trawl nets, with a lot of cargo capability to carry the fish home, high stability when loaded, and a huge range, good enough to stay out there - often in awful weather - for days or weeks.
So, strictly speaking, even Nordies and the likes, being pleasure boats, are not trawlers.
But within pleasure boats, they are as close as they can be to commercial trawlers, so I would think it's acceptable to use the term to describe them.

Otoh, a "swift trawler" is not a modern (or revised, reinvented, whatever) trawler.
It is, quite simply, an oxymoron - brainchild of some marketing genius who thought that the term might inspire a sense of safety and seaworthiness in their target clients.
As a result, we are now debating whether the windshield angle is a proper criteria to identify what is a trawler and what is not - sorry Bouba, I'm not having a go at you personally, but your post made me laugh! (*)

Mind, nothing of what I'm saying is aimed at dismissing the ST, the Magellano, the Sirena, whatever.
They might well be perfect boats for many people, but trawlers they are not, by any stretch of imagination.
Sure, there are worse things in life than stealing words, or using them improperly.
And if anyone would like to call the Magellano a skiboat, who am I to argue? In fact, that's not much more wrong than calling it a trawler...

(*) PS: by that definition, even the 40 kts capable, IPS driven Delta 88 with its reverse raked windshield would be a trawler - as well as Paul Salliss new Axopar, capable of 50 kts! :ambivalence:

 

[Bouba]

LJS, of course I agree - in fact, I'm the one who raised this semantic issue, sort of.
But at risk of appearing too radical, I think that also introducing the concept of "traditional" vs. "modern" (or whatever) trawlers is not correct.
A trawler is one of the simplest vessels known to mankind: a powerboat designed to trawl nets, with a lot of cargo capability to carry the fish home, high stability when loaded, and a huge range, good enough to stay out there - often in awful weather - for days or weeks.
So, strictly speaking, even Nordies and the likes, being pleasure boats, are not trawlers.
But within pleasure boats, they are as close as they can be to commercial trawlers, so I would think it's acceptable to use the term to describe them.

Otoh, a "swift trawler" is not a modern (or revised, reinvented, whatever) trawler.
It is, quite simply, an oxymoron - brainchild of some marketing genius who thought that the term might inspire a sense of safety and seaworthiness in their target clients.
As a result, we are now debating whether the windshield angle is a proper criteria to identify what is a trawler and what is not - sorry Bouba, I'm not having a go at you personally, but your post made me laugh!

Mind, nothing of what I'm saying is aimed at dismissing the ST, the Magellano, the Sirena, whatever.
They might well be perfect boats for many people, but trawlers they are not, by any stretch of imagination.
Sure, there are worse things in life than stealing words, or using them improperly.
And if anyone would like to call the Magellano a skiboat, who am I to argue? In fact, that's not much more wrong than calling it a trawler...!

Well I've been trying to make you laugh for ages, everyone else thinks I'm funny
But the trawler marketing definition does really come down to windows, there is nothing else in common there are even trawler cats!
And the real hard core trawler pleasure boats have their windows tilted forward!

 

[MapisM]

Well I've been trying to make you laugh for ages, everyone else thinks I'm funny

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
If I may quote Gainsbourg, "la connerie, c'est la décontraction de l'intelligence"... :encouragement:
But don't tell PS that he thought to buy an outboard powered speed demon and he'll get a trawler instead!

 

[stillwaters]

as well as Paul Salliss new Axopar, capable of 50 kts! :ambivalence:

So what's wrong with a 50 knot trawler? While PS has been concerned how he's going to make a cup of tea whilst underway, by hinting at the idea of hanging a net of the back of his Axe machine, you've just come up with the solution of where he's going to get some fresh fish to eat once he gets there. Brilliant.:encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Yeah, every day is a school day, as they say... :encouragement:

 

[Bouba]

The other styling cue is 'Scandinavian', their inspiration comes from fishing boats not trawlers (spot the difference?)

 

[Capital_R]

Possibly the worst promotional video for a boat I have ever seen.

An attractive couple who quite frankly need to get a room if they are so much in love. Take the film crew and make a soft porn movie, I suspect it won't be the first one they've shot.

In the meantime you could then get someone in to make a less vomit inducing showcase for what may or may not be a great boat. The odd 2 second glimpse in between touching, caressing and stroking doesn't give much away.



Do they reallly think people buy into this "lifestyle" crap ?

Henry

Cringe at this....

 

[Bouba]

Cringe at this....

Actually I liked it, it was full of information and the boat had age appropriate people on board. Its the soft porn ads I don't like. I don't want young people shagging on my boat!

 

[Eren]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

re bigger engine for the Sirena,
It would surprice me if there is a 1200Hp version that can do 28kn,
either its only 1000Hp,
or its 1200Hp but you could to more than 28kn,
as a comparison, my old fashion 2 x 1100Hp 55Ton boat can acheeve 26kn on a good day.
bottom line, its mostly the boats's weight that counts at this kind of speeds.

You are right Bart. They use the new CAT 12.9 engines. Standard one is 850 HP and upgraded one is 1000 HP. With the latter one they claim to reach 27-28 knots.

 

[Eren]

According to the specs, the S64 is about 6t lighter than the M66 and if there is any difference in the fuel consumption it will probably be down to that because AFAIK the hulls are similar in design

Deleted User, the superstructure of the boat is carbon, I think that is where the weight gain comes from. I believe in physics. There is a certain energy amount that you need to move mass X from point A to point B at a certain speed. You can play with the hull design but in the end the total energy (amount of fuel in our case) don't seem to change much. Of course I assume that the tested hulls would be somehow engineered ones.

If Sirena 64 is 6 tons lighter than the Magellano 66, then they gain around 15% fuel from there. If the hull is engineered somehow better, then somewhere around 20% may really be possible. We will see!

By the way, today I am informed that I will be testing the Nr 1 hull which is equipped with the Volvo 900 HP engines. All the other ones were equipped with CAT 12.9 850 HP and upgraded 1000 HP engines.

 

[BartW]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

You are right Bart. They use the new CAT 12.9 engines. Standard one is 850 HP and upgraded one is 1000 HP. With the latter one they claim to reach 27-28 knots.

these figures are what could be expected, and they are in normal planing mode behaviour.
I'm with Deleted User that difference in fuel consumption at planing speed can mainly be adressed to a lower weight, (use of kevlar and Carbon fibre...)
especially when compared with a Princess 68.

but I'm mostly interested if there is a advantage with this hull type at SD mode speeds 10....16kn, compared fe to traditional planing hulls, or SD hulls,
I mean in general, I don't expect Sirena to be significantly better than Az, Beneteau or Delta, to name a few that use this newer hull shape.
I'm afraid that we will never know accurately, because there are so many other variables in each test.

 

[Eren]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

but I'm mostly interested if there is a advantage with this hull type at SD mode speeds 10....16kn, compared fe to traditional planing hulls, or SD hulls,
I mean in general, I don't expect Sirena to be significantly better than Az, Beneteau or Delta, to name a few that use this newer hull shape.
I'm afraid that we will never know accurately, because there are so many other variables in each test.

I believe that at the speed range of 10-16 knots, SD hulls will be better than P hulls, because that is the speed range where the P hulls are struggling to plane. SD hulls will also be struggling at the same range but to much lesser extent than the P hulls. I have liter per mile vs speed graph of my SS70. Even though she is bigger, we may have a look at shape of the curves and may try to understand the behaviour. I will provide these info after the sea trial.

 

[BartW]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

I have liter per mile vs speed graph of my SS70. Even though she is bigger, we may have a look at shape of the curves and may try to understand the behaviour. I will provide these info after the sea trial.

yes this "shape of the curve", that is exactly what we would like to see and compare...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

I believe that at the speed range of 10-16 knots, SD hulls will be better than P hulls, because that is the speed range where the P hulls are struggling to plane. SD hulls will also be struggling at the same range but to much lesser extent than the P hulls. .

Not sure I agree with that. Yes there will be a jump in fuel consumption as a P boat transitions from D to P state but the fuel consumption will still rise as the P boat goes faster. In other words it is nearly always going to be consuming more fuel at 25kts that it is at the hump speed of 13-16kts. Here is the NMPG (nautical miles per gallon) v Speed curve for my Ferretti 630 P boat (data from electronic engine management system)

You can see the boat transitions on to the plane at around 11-13kts but the boat is always using more fuel the faster you go. Actually for me the most striking thing is how quickly fuel consumption rises at D speeds. The boat is using around 2.5 times as much fuel at 10kts as it is at 7 kts so the lesson for me is that if I really want to save fuel I have to cruise at minimum in gear speed

With regard to a typical SD hulled boat I would not expect the curve to look much different except when the boat transitions on to the plane after which it will most probably use increasingly more fuel than a P boat. For me the advantage of a SD boat over a P boat (of similar weight and length) is never going to be in fuel consumption at any speed but in comfort at sea in that because the SD boats normally lifts out of the water less than a P boat, the sharper forward part of the hull is hitting the waves

Actually it would be interesting to compare the fuel consumption of the Sirena 64 against the curve for my boat because in terms of weight (my boat weighs 39t) and dimensions they are very similar. If the Sirena is using less fuel in the critical 10-20kt range then they may be able to say they have designed a hull that is better

 

[Eren]

Re: An invitation to sea trial of brand new Sirena 64 trawler!��

Not sure I agree with that. Yes there will be a jump in fuel consumption as a P boat transitions from D to P state but the fuel consumption will still rise as the P boat goes faster. In other words it is nearly always going to be consuming more fuel at 25kts that it is at the hump speed of 13-16kts. Here is the NMPG (nautical miles per gallon) v Speed curve for my Ferretti 630 P boat (data from electronic engine management system)

You can see the boat transitions on to the plane at around 11-13kts but the boat is always using more fuel the faster you go. Actually for me the most striking thing is how quickly fuel consumption rises at D speeds. The boat is using around 2.5 times as much fuel at 10kts as it is at 7 kts so the lesson for me is that if I really want to save fuel I have to cruise at minimum in gear speed

With regard to a typical SD hulled boat I would not expect the curve to look much different except when the boat transitions on to the plane after which it will most probably use increasingly more fuel than a P boat. For me the advantage of a SD boat over a P boat (of similar weight and length) is never going to be in fuel consumption at any speed but in comfort at sea in that because the SD boats normally lifts out of the water less than a P boat, the sharper forward part of the hull is hitting the waves

Actually it would be interesting to compare the fuel consumption of the Sirena 64 against the curve for my boat because in terms of weight (my boat weighs 39t) and dimensions they are very similar. If the Sirena is using less fuel in the critical 10-20kt range then they may be able to say they have designed a hull that is better

Deleted User, what a great input you have provided !! Thanks for that. I added the figures from my SS Manhattan 70 on it. The curve looks very similar. I don't know the exact weight of my boat but the builder certificate says full load displacement as 44.4 tons. I've got 2xMAN 1550 HP at the E/R.



On top of this I will add the Sirena results and we will see if there is a behaviour difference.