An answer from Gus Lewis today

[emnick]

Re Kings Cross fire, I stated heroic actions and I appreciate a brave Fire Officer sadly lost his life but there was evidence that some passengers were directed into the fire and trains were still stopping at KX adding to the difficulties, when they should have been ordered to run through.
Re 7/7 I base my post on the report of the Coroner's Report in the "quality" press.
A key issue-underground communications-identified as a problem in the Kings Cross fire-had still not been addressed satisfactorily by 7/7.

Did you attend Both inquests? I did?.....even the "quality" press do not report all the facts, they report what they want you read!

You have now gone from "Flawed"and "discoordinated" to a problem with communications, narrowed down to the Kings cross incidents? A bit of an overstatement IMHO

 

[Vara]

This is exactly my concern, 'last sentence, para four' is hardly a binding declaration by France, Spain etc. When these countries see what an easy way this is of raising revenue to help their suffering economies, once they realise that HMRC have made us an easy target will they want to miss the opportunity?

France in particular has always had a pragmatic approach to revenue gathering, and my experience would suggest that local enforcers put the increased revenue streams to their local communities above collecting for central government.

Hopefully that will continue.

 

[Tranona]

This is exactly my concern, 'last sentence, para four' is hardly a binding declaration by France, Spain etc. When these countries see what an easy way this is of raising revenue to help their suffering economies, once they realise that HMRC have made us an easy target will they want to miss the opportunity?

What else can he say? It reflects reality. He has an agreement from the Dutch customs about their position. There are no reports of any fines in the other countries (nor at the moment) any suggestion that the law in other countries is as specific as it is in Belgium. Of course that may all change if the EU does confirm that UK practice is illegal.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Did you attend Both inquests? I did?.....even the "quality" press do not report all the facts, they report what they want you read!

You have now gone from "Flawed"and "discoordinated" to a problem with communications, narrowed down to the Kings cross incidents? A bit of an overstatement IMHO

I seem to remember reading that ambulances were sent to the wrong location. I would have thought that was a discoordinated and flawed response.

 

[Supine Being]

France in particular has always had a pragmatic approach to revenue gathering, and my experience would suggest that local enforcers put the increased revenue streams to their local communities above collecting for central government.

Hopefully that will continue.

I completely agree with what Vara says here. Even if an over-zealous youngster starts to interpret regulations a little too literally, I'm sure that a few phone calls would soon set them right.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Of course that may all change if the EU does confirm that UK practice is illegal.

And that is my point, it wont go unnoticed in France and Spain what Belgium is doing and now that HMRC have effectively told boat owners "your on our own outside territorial waters" what is to stop other countries following suit?

 

[neale]

And that is my point, it wont go unnoticed in France and Spain what Belgium is doing and now that HMRC have effectively told boat owners "your on our own outside territorial waters" what is to stop other countries following suit?

One would hope that common sense would stop them following suit. Northern French ports rely quite heavily on visiting UK boats. The financial loss from boats no longer visiting will be greater than the gain from a few fines.

 

[Tranona]

And that is my point, it wont go unnoticed in France and Spain what Belgium is doing and now that HMRC have effectively told boat owners "your on our own outside territorial waters" what is to stop other countries following suit?

There are no indications that they have any interest. In each case they would have to put in place a law the same as the Belgians. They can't just decide to fine people without having both a law and a declared policy to implement it.

Gus seemed very clear in saying the difference in Belgium is that there law has a blanket prohibition on the use of marked diesel, which suggests that the other countries do not. They would also have to apply the same law to their own citizens as the Belgians do, and again there is no sign they are doing this.

 

[DJE]

"marked diesel is widely available in non-EU countries such as Norway and the Channel Islands"
Just about decided to start using white but most of the red dye that I'm going to be diluting/draining out got there from fuel purchased in St. Peter Port last year. Is it legal to have C.I. or Norwegian red dye in your tank in Belgium?

 

[DJE]

I completely agree with what Vara says here. Even if an over-zealous youngster starts to interpret regulations a little too literally, I'm sure that a few phone calls would soon set them right.

I would like to see that over-zealous youngster try to fine Norman or Breton yachties returning from UK with red in their tanks.

 

[maby]

"marked diesel is widely available in non-EU countries such as Norway and the Channel Islands"
Just about decided to start using white but most of the red dye that I'm going to be diluting/draining out got there from fuel purchased in St. Peter Port last year. Is it legal to have C.I. or Norwegian red dye in your tank in Belgium?

Should be in theory, but there have been a couple of cases of the Germans fining US boats for carrying red diesel purchased legally in America. Can you prove where the fuel in your tank came from?

 

[Sans Bateau]

There are no indications that they have any interest. In each case they would have to put in place a law the same as the Belgians. They can't just decide to fine people without having both a law and a declared policy to implement it.

Gus seemed very clear in saying the difference in Belgium is that there law has a blanket prohibition on the use of marked diesel, which suggests that the other countries do not. They would also have to apply the same law to their own citizens as the Belgians do, and again there is no sign they are doing this.

Of course I do hope you are right, I'm just looking at a worse case scenario. See, I thought Belgium was just exercising the EU wide law on dyed diesel, hence the recent move by HMRC. I cant say that I have seen anything which indicates that Belgium is using some additional local law, my understanding has always been that Belgium is just being over zealous in implementing the EU law.

 

[maby]

Of course I do hope you are right, I'm just looking at a worse case scenario. See, I thought Belgium was just exercising the EU wide law on dyed diesel, hence the recent move by HMRC. I cant say that I have seen anything which indicates that Belgium is using some additional local law, my understanding has always been that Belgium is just being over zealous in implementing the EU law.

It is hard to see how the other EU countries could not have similar laws. Each country is required to enact laws that put the directives in force and there is a directive that requires each member state to "take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided". There is some discussion as to what constitutes an "improper use", but it would seem clear that all member states need to have laws in place to restrict the use of red diesel to some extent.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Maby - Exactly!

 

[Tranona]

However, if you listen closely to Gus, he claims that the EU directive (not law) does not specifically ban the use of red in recreational boats. This is the whole basis of the Govts arguments, and the basis on which the Commission had confirmed that the current arrangements in the UK are legal. He specifically said that Belgium has a specific law - the implication being that other states do not.

I don't know whether he is right or not, and I assume that Holland has a similar law because they are specifically saying they will not penalise people who can show recent receipts. If the other states do have the laws in place, they will not be recent, but several years old and there seems to be no indication they have applied any penalties up till now.

It really seems to be out of his hands anyway and there is nothing that can be done until the EU decides whether to continue its action against the UK government.

 

[emnick]

flawed

I seem to remember reading that ambulances were sent to the wrong location. I would have thought that was a discoordinated and flawed response.

They simply go to where they are ordered again you read it !!

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

They simply go to where they are ordered again you read it !!

I rest my case. However, to get back to the thread, I responded to blueboatman's post because I feel the Belgians have often been contemptuously portrayed as unreasonably obstuctive when, in fact, it was our Government who failed to think through the difficulties their actions would put our partner European states in as they try to prevent their citizens using reduced tax diesel.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

in fact, it was our Government who failed to think through the difficulties their actions would put our partner European states in as they try to prevent their citizens using reduced tax diesel.

I think its fairly clear that the UK govt, after talking to all the parties concerned including the RYA decided that the current approach was the best one for the majority of UK boaters. And that probably is the case even if it makes life more risky for those who go abroad.

 

[emnick]

I rest my case. However, to get back to the thread, I responded to blueboatman's post because I feel the Belgians have often been contemptuously portrayed as unreasonably obstuctive when, in fact, it was our Government who failed to think through the difficulties their actions would put our partner European states in as they try to prevent their citizens using reduced tax diesel.

Will have to agree to disagree on this.

I know for a fact that the incidents you describe as "Flawed"and "discoordinated " were not. I am not saying perfect but NOT as you insultingly portray. Always room to learn from previous jobs.

Just to clarify; if members of the public call the emergency services to an address they will go to the address they are called to. Other, appliances will be dispatched when the correct address becomes clear. How else can they do it.
I now rest my case.
I agree with the second part of your post though, our government have caused this, perhaps trying to keep too many people happy.

 

[sailorman]

I think its fairly clear that the UK govt, after talking to all the parties concerned including the RYA decided that the current approach was the best one for the majority of UK boaters. And that probably is the case even if it makes life more risky for those who go abroad.

That is not the case, the RYA were NOT aware of the press release until after publication