An answer from Gus Lewis today

[yesod]

I rest my case. However, to get back to the thread, I responded to blueboatman's post because I feel the Belgians have often been contemptuously portrayed as unreasonably obstuctive when, in fact, it was our Government who failed to think through the difficulties their actions would put our partner European states in as they try to prevent their citizens using reduced tax diesel.

you're wrong. surely we've always worked under the assumption that the flag-nation's laws apply. you don't comply with the french 'required safety equipment' laws when you visit france, do you? so why should belgians care what british flagged vessels put in their tanks?

the pragmatic approach is one that most countries take. belgium chose to be stupid.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Of course I do hope you are right, I'm just looking at a worse case scenario. See, I thought Belgium was just exercising the EU wide law on dyed diesel, hence the recent move by HMRC. I cant say that I have seen anything which indicates that Belgium is using some additional local law, my understanding has always been that Belgium is just being over zealous in implementing the EU law.

That's the fundamental point that is not getting any attention. There's no such thing as EU law in reality. There are EU directives that dictate what a government has to have in place in it's country (such as marking diesel with a lower tax-rate) but not complying with that is more like the government breaking a contract with the other countries with the government incurring penalties as a result - the "fines" levied by the EU on the UK government.

The question I asked Gus Lewis was "what is the Belgian law that is being used to charge the visiting yachtsmen?" but that wasn't answered unfortunately. Until that is known it's impossible to say exactly how the Belgians have interpreted the EU directive. The Belgian courts have no jurisdiction or desire to penalise individuals for breaking UK laws or failing to follow EU directives, they are only interested in people who break Belgian laws. The first step should be to identify that law and the reasons the court believed it had been broken and found the accused party guilty. After that you can decide if there's a defence that can be successfully used in the Belgian courts. You can also decide if the Belgian laws correctly interpret the EU directive, though that needs to be taken up with the EU. From the Belgian perspective they need to explain why they feel the UK laws do not meet EU directive but again that's all at government/EU level. The only piece that directly concerns the UK yachtsman is the actual Belgian law and no-one seems to know (or is willing to say) what it is.

 

[samwise]

Sorry, but it looks like another fudge to me. It all seems to hinge on the threat by the suppliers (marinas) to shut down if they are compelled to switch from red to white. All this of course is based on a survey carried out seven years ago ( See Gus letter) but I suspect the industry stance has not changed much.

As with so many things, does it come down to money in the end? Is the impression being given that those nice kind people in the marinas and ports are supplying fuel to leisure boaters out of the kindness of their hearts? Or is it that white diesel offers a much smaller profit margin?

I think that the "solution " due to come into effect next month is flaky and cannot be called a compromise. Confusion, doubt and fear will continue to reign as far as boaters travelling outside UK waters with red in the tank.

The government clearly wants no more to do with it, not being much of a vote winner. The RYA continues with the hand-wringing but is doing little to move towards a clear and simple non ambiguous arrangement that will not continue to leave boaters exposed to uncertainty.

To me, the way forward is clear. Dump red. It's going to happen anyway.

 

[rotrax]

you're wrong. surely we've always worked under the assumption that the flag-nation's laws apply. you don't comply with the french 'required safety equipment' laws when you visit france, do you? so why should belgians care what british flagged vessels put in their tanks?

the pragmatic approach is one that most countries take. belgium chose to be stupid.

I seem to remember the Portugese are checking British craft out and expecting them to be up to their standards. Why not- it is after all their territorial waters. The Irish will have us wear lifejackets in the tender-why not-their country-their rules.

 

[maby]

Sorry, but it looks like another fudge to me. It all seems to hinge on the threat by the suppliers (marinas) to shut down if they are compelled to switch from red to white. All this of course is based on a survey carried out seven years ago ( See Gus letter) but I suspect the industry stance has not changed much.

....

I think the dedicated leisure marinas would switch very quickly if the government banned the sale of red diesel to us. They probably do not make that much profit out of fuel sales, but if they started to see people resigning their berths because is was no longer possible to buy fuel for their boats, they would switch in a heartbeat. The bigger problem would be people in more remote locations who have to buy fuel from commercial pumps. It would be interesting to know how many of them there really is - I suspect that many rely on rowing jerry cans out in the tender.