Am I being unreasonable ....

[Baggywrinkle]

I signed a pre-purchase agreement on my next boat which had a final payment date of the end of July. I paid the holding deposit and set about arranging registration, survey etc. I was planning to do the survey mid July, sign the sales contract with the agreed price and pay the remaining sum in the last week of July - meeting the agreed deadline.

The seller has in the last few days indicated that he wants the survey completed and the contract signed before he goes on holiday at the end of June. This was never brought up until now. The ramifications of complying with this request are:

I have to arrange time off work at short notice - which I can hopefully do, it is normally just inconvenience.
I have to drive the 1300km round trip in a gas guzzler which is being swapped out on the 1st July against a much more economical car, and I will also pay an excess mileage penalty for those additional kms.
I can not use my first-choice surveyor as they are unable to survey in June - so I'm going with another surveyor.

In view of all this, I have told the seller that if he is willing to split the haul-out costs, I am willing to pull the survey forward to June and meet his requirement to have the contract signed before he goes on holiday, otherwise it goes ahead mid-July as planned.

I think this is reasonable, what is the collective opinion of the forum?

 

[jlavery]

Sounds reasonable - I'd also explain the reasons you've given above as to why it's an inconvenience to you and also a departure from what you thought was the agreed timescale.

 

[B27]

I think two weeks from Survey to completion can be ambitious.
It doesn't take much to come up on the survey for you to need to find quotes, investigate ways forward, agree on reductions or whatever.
Tight deadlines to complete soon after survey may not work.

Effectively you're chiselling the price before survey.
Whether you get away with that depends on how close the vendor is to breaking point.
A lot of surveys happen without either party being present.

I think getting the survey done as soon as reasonably possible is a Good Thing for all parties, especially the vendor as the season ticks away.

 

[benjenbav]

I signed a pre-purchase agreement on my next boat which had a final payment date of the end of July. I paid the holding deposit and set about arranging registration, survey etc. I was planning to do the survey mid July, sign the sales contract with the agreed price and pay the remaining sum in the last week of July - meeting the agreed deadline.

The seller has in the last few days indicated that he wants the survey completed and the contract signed before he goes on holiday at the end of June. This was never brought up until now. The ramifications of complying with this request are:

I have to arrange time off work at short notice - which I can hopefully do, it is normally just inconvenience.
I have to drive the 1300km round trip in a gas guzzler which is being swapped out on the 1st July against a much more economical car, and I will also pay an excess mileage penalty for those additional kms.
I can not use my first-choice surveyor as they are unable to survey in June - so I'm going with another surveyor.

In view of all this, I have told the seller that if he is willing to split the haul-out costs, I am willing to pull the survey forward to June and meet his requirement to have the contract signed before he goes on holiday, otherwise it goes ahead mid-July as planned.

I think this is reasonable, what is the collective opinion of the forum?

I’ve no idea what your pre-purchase agreement even means. Is it just a waste of pixels or does it create legal obligations?

Assuming the former, then both sides can ask for whatever they want.

Your counterparty seems to want to change what was previously proposed. This is going to add some incidental expenses to your account plus some inconvenience. So why should you even think there’s a possibility of being unreasonable by pushing back a little?

 

[steveeasy]

Just playing devils advocate. Almost mid June, survey mid July. How long ago did you sign pre purchase agreement ?.
If we were the seller it’s drawn out. For a buyer not so.

Best practice would be to do survey as soon as you can.

Steveeasy

 

[Zing]

The usual thing is for a pre-purchase agreement to oblige the vendor to make the boat available at a time of your choosing, so you can insist on no change in plans. I’d ask him to pay any extra costs and to compensate you for being inconvenienced. That said, it’s actually better to get the survey done early as post survey negotiations can be interminable as alluded to above and that is to your advantage. It’s also better early as if it’s a reject you can resume the search earlier.

 

[Biggles Wader]

He who pays the piper calls the tune. It's your money and therefore your choice on whether the additional costs and inconvenience are worth it. Also----how important is it who does the survey? Is the first choice surveyor better or more trusted than the other one?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Just playing devils advocate. Almost mid June, survey mid July. How long ago did you sign pre purchase agreement ?.
If we were the seller it’s drawn out. For a buyer not so.

Best practice would be to do survey as soon as you can.

Steveeasy

It was made clear right at the beginning of the process that the final payment would be end of July. The seller agreed to this. Part of the agreement was also that I would pay his marina fees for the 2 month delay. This was in the pre-purchase agreement.

I think two weeks from Survey to completion can be ambitious.
It doesn't take much to come up on the survey for you to need to find quotes, investigate ways forward, agree on reductions or whatever.
Tight deadlines to complete soon after survey may not work.

Effectively you're chiselling the price before survey.
Whether you get away with that depends on how close the vendor is to breaking point.
A lot of surveys happen without either party being present.

I think getting the survey done as soon as reasonably possible is a Good Thing for all parties, especially the vendor as the season ticks away.

From my first inspection and test there is nothing wrong with this boat that I can see, having been into every nook and cranny - in fact it is in exceptional condition for its age. Pictures here Looks like I'm going to be a boat owner again ....

The only reason I want the survey is to check rudder bearing and rudder moisture content, hull moisture content, keel to hull seal, saildrive/prop and engine, and finally the rig in order to satisfy the insurer. Everything else I can inspect and fix myself. There might be a bit of negotiation but the price was fine as long as everything works and nothing turns up on the items I mentioned above. This sale will go through unless there is a walk-away issue.

 

[mainsail1]

What is he going to do if you just say nope, I will stick to what we agreed?

 

[benjenbav]

What is he going to do if you just say nope, I will stick to what we agreed?

Maybe seller thinks he can do better and wants to put the OP under pressure.

Proposed form of contract must be quite different from usual UK style ABYA form where contract precedes survey and contains provisions as to what the parties can do if the survey shows up issues.

 

[steveeasy]

Think the seller will be happy with your proposals , rather than going off on holiday and all the hassle of dealing with the matter during or following a holiday break.

It was made clear right at the beginning of the process that the final payment would be end of July. The seller agreed to this. Part of the agreement was also that I would pay his marina fees for the 2 month delay. This was in the pre-purchase agreement.



From my first inspection and test there is nothing wrong with this boat that I can see, having been into every nook and cranny - in fact it is in exceptional condition for its age. Pictures here Looks like I'm going to be a boat owner again ....

The only reason I want the survey is to check rudder bearing and rudder moisture content, hull moisture content, keel to hull seal, saildrive/prop and engine, and finally the rig in order to satisfy the insurer. Everything else I can inspect and fix myself. There might be a bit of negotiation but the price was fine as long as everything works and nothing turns up on the items I mentioned above. This sale will go through unless there is a walk-away issue.

Hi,
well if it was clear at the beginning and in the pre purchase agreement, combined you agreed to pay marina fees for the period, then I dont think you are being unreasonable. Of course he can ask. Bit frustrating though.

Steveeasy

 

[WoodyP]

Put the purchase back to when he returns. Don't be bounced into something you aren't comfortable with.

 

[lustyd]

I have to drive the 1300km round trip in a gas guzzler which is being swapped out on the 1st July against a much more economical car, and I will also pay an excess mileage penalty for those additional kms.

Don't mention this. Your personal transport decisions are your problem. The seller is being unreasonable and that is sufficient argument. Talk of your car doesn’t make you look good or reasonable. Your time off work also isn’t their problem, it’s up to you to make time to complete the process.
Agreed dates are agreed dates, that’s all you need.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Don't mention this. Your personal transport decisions are your problem. The seller is being unreasonable and that is sufficient argument. Talk of your car doesn’t make you look good or reasonable. Your time off work also isn’t their problem, it’s up to you to make time to complete the process.
Agreed dates are agreed dates, that’s all you need.

I haven't told the seller this detailed information, these are just facts that affect my willingness to compromise and pull the date forward to keep him happy. Being simply stubborn and inflexible is also not great, so the pitch is, I am willing to accomodate his wishes, but it comes at personal inconvenience to me and additional cost so I expect him to share that cost, and mitigate the inconvenience. My condition is he contributes to the haul-out costs to have what he wants.

I can understand that he wants to be present for the survey, especially if anything turns up under the waterline. E.g. if the boat ends up back in the water and I claim a rudder problem, how can he be certain without looking himself?

I'm sure it will get sorted out, just annoying when plans have to be re-made through no fault of your own. Will be talking with the broker today to guage how best to pitch it - I've never met the seller so can't judge if he is a reasonable person or a cantankerous old git.

 

[lustyd]

Fair enough if you're not sharing that with them, I do understand why it's frustrating but it's certainly not their problem.

I don't understand why bringing the date forwards would affect who pays for the lift. The lift is always the purchaser's responsibility. While I understand the frustration of changing dates, I don't see why that changes the finances of the situation. You can certainly ask, but if you want the original dates then insist the original dates are adhered to as per the contract which presumably they have signed.

If I were the seller this whole conversation would ring alarm bells and suggest that further demands for discount were on their way following survey. Start by insisting you have a contract with written dates, and sure if they insist they need to change that then what you say doesn't seem unreasonable.


In terms of the moisture readings, hopefully you realise that there isn't a rudder out there that doesn't have high readings, especially immediately after lift.

 

[benjenbav]

You are recognising that the seller has a legitimate wish to be present at the survey, hence the desire for it to be carried out before their holiday. The seller should also recognise that, in order to accommodate this new wish, you will be put to inconvenience - have to take time away from work at a time you hadn’t planned to; first choice surveyor not available.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Update: after talking this over with the broker, his advice was that the seller has already compromised over the final payment date, pushing it out 2 months at my request, so further monetary demands are unadvisable ... it appears that June is a preference as he is in the marina living on his new motor boat. I thought he had given up boating for health reasons, but he has given up sailing for health reasons - wrong assumption, but it explains lack of dinghy and outboard in the inventory. He would appreciate being there for the survey and sea trial ... he's not apparently going on holiday, he has to go back to Germany to work.The request is also not a demand.

So what to do? .... I really like this boat as it combines the space and light of modern AWBs with a bit more of a traditional interior and it has a chart table!! ... and a lead keel. It is one of those instances where you wonder if it is worth it chipping away at the good will of the seller ... or as @lustyd pointed out, giving them reason to get nervous and worry about more demands down the line.

So after much deliberation, I think I am going to try and retain the sellers good will and move the survey. I also don't have the cash flow timing issues I thought I had, so I can get the boat earlier and pay earlier - which would be a benefit to me too.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, and I think a decision is made. My initial frustration has given way to the pragmatism of getting the boat earlier than intended.

 

[lustyd]

Hope all goes well. We've tried to buy twice over the last year and both fell through. Unfortunately we know what we want and that doesn't come up often so I think it's a good decision to be flexible and make sure you get what you want even if it is frustrating. Lead keel would be nice, the little rust marks on ours drive me crazy every time!

 

[steveeasy]

Sounds a better plan of action. Then if things don’t work out you will have done all you can. Good luck hope all goes well.

Steveeasy

 

[KevinV]

Glad you've chosen an amicable solution - which just so happens to give more time to rectify any issues the survey throws up - that looked a bit tight on your timings