aluminium anchors?

[snowleopard]

what does the team think about the idea of using a really big aluminium anchor as a bower. it should mean you wouldn't drag even in a hurricane and the weight would be no more than a normal sized steel one.

i have a huge fortress but its shape makes it a bit of a non-starter for self-stowing. dare i say what about an aluminium spade?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jerryat]

Hi Snowleopard,

Not sure I'd relax too much with that. Of course, like most, I've been used to the 'it needs the weight to work' principle of anchors for many years, and changing what's ingrained does require quite a leap. At least for me! I've got a Fortress as a back-up anchor to my two 35lb CQR bowers and 7.5 kilo Bruce kedge, but I've only used the thing out of interest, not as a bower in earnest.

I have met several American yachts who have a monster Fortress as a bower, but no Europeans - yet! My FX16 didn't hold the first two times I used it (not entirely it's fault as the bottom was stony and one got lodged in the blades) and only held on another occasion and a lot of hassle. In each case the CQR held first time.

Having said all that, I have heard stories of superb holding in extremely nasty conditions, to the extent that recovering the Ali anchor afterwards was the main problem!!

I suspect we'll gradually take to them more readily, but whether most people will feel totally relaxed laying to one and leaving the boat for a day or so, is another matter, and some way away for me.

Cheers

Jerry

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[webcraft]

Tests with the Spade claim to show that once it is set the ally one has the same holding power as the same area steel one.

If you had an oversized (area-wise) Spade it would almost certainly set easier than (eg) an equivalent size of fortress because 50% of the weight is over the tip.

The problem might be breaking it out . . . otherwise, sounds like a good idea - probably a particularly good idea for a multihull as you should have more foredeck space for handling a big anchor.

Thought you had been put off Spades by all us Spadeophiles saying how good they were?

- Nick



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>

 

[rickwat]

No connection with spade apart from buying an A100 aluminium one for my Snowgoose cat . Performs well enough but at 9kgs won't self launch with all the chain attached(suppose I could detach the chain) so have invested in an A140 at 15Kg but as yet have not tried it. I thought like you the biggest you could handle but aluminium anchors are so expensive even in equivalent sizes that I originally thought it profligate to go for a bigger one. Only snag is I'll have to maintain an anchor watch more nights to make sure no-one pinches it.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

The Bavaria 44 we had on charter had an aluminium kedge, I thought I would try it out at a swim stop before using it in harbour. Glad I did because it just draged and would not dig in, with only about a two metres of chain attached I wasn't surprised. So we had to go stern on whenever we went into harbour. On one occasion we had badly placed the bow anchor so decided to try and put out the kedge off the port bow to windward, after dropping it from the tender and then pulling it back to the boat through the mud by hand twice we gave up. It was easier to go out and reposition the bow anchor and come back in again.
I think the alloy anchor was an accident waiting to happen no way would it hold a 44ft yacht with a strong cross wind where the loading is considerable. When we did get hit by an overnight storm in Gaos on Paxos we were glad the alloy kedge was stowed in the locker.
Give me a heavy anchor and chain then I can sleep at night.

Trevor



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[scarlett]

I used a 7lb Fortress on a 25 foot 2 tonne boat for 5 years with few problems. It did not like rocks or weed. If you got it dug in it held bending a fluke ultimately. (once )

When I changed to a 30 foot 4 tonne boat with a supplied Plastimo 30lb CQR I put the Fort. in the locker. Glad I did because the CQR was 100% useless in hard sand. So I would put the Fort. on a tandem metre of chain and use the CQR as a chum. Perfect everytime.

But fed up with the kerfuffle, this year sold the CQR and bought a 26lb Oceane. Fine for one season in the Med if. when you find the bottom is soft, you change the angle to the soft mud setting. Otherwise it slowly drags. The OCN is not bothered by weed but finds pebbles/shingle/cobbles difficult. I haven't tried the soft mud setting on this mixture. Yet.

If buying a OCN don't be tempted to use an oversize 'all singing' connector because it will unbalance the anchor, cause it to be a pain to stow and maybe lay on its side under difficult conditions.

The perfect anchor has yet to be designed.

=

In any bottom, without adjustment, must set immediately no matter how carelessly thrown over the bow.
Once set, reset as it turns on changes of pull.
It must drag when it fails without 'letting go'
It must be possible to break it out when wanted.
Be possible to stow on the bow.
Has nothing harmful to fingers.
Weigh little enough to be able to lift with one hand over a bow.
And cost the same as any other anchor.

From observation a Delta fails the last point and does not always set. From observation a heavy ( failing the penuultimate point.) Bruce will saisfy the first point but drags too easily in reasonable sizes. A small Bruce will not set in certain bottoms like sand. The WASI looks to work but I have only seen big ones in use on heavy boats. I have my doubts about one weighing, say 15 lb. I think physics wil dictate that it will lay on its side. It needs development.

The basic idea of the OCN developed with a combination of materials and more sophisticated shapes woud fail the last point but be the way to go for me.


I wish someone with the facilities would do a scientific study to achieve the 'perfect anchor'.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ChrisE]

You say you have a huge Fortress, we have one as well and agree about the storage problems. We got over them by having a storage clip attached to the pushpit and walking it forward whenever needed. Contrary to standard practice we use it directly to multiplat (via a shackle to take the abrasive forces at the join) over areas of sand and mud. Ours is an FX19 (I think, it weighs 19 lbs) and happily holds our 10 ton Rival 38.

We have spent over 100 days at anchor to it in both in local waters including the Scillies and abroad in the Caribbean abd Bahamas in winds up to sustained 40 knots.

Others have said that you have to careful with planing as the anchor is lowered but we have not experienced this.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

it is not only shape but also weight that helps an anchor work. Of course fluke / spade size is important - but MHO is weight cannot be substituted .....

Size has no bearing whatever if it doesn't dig in ..... weight does though.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[beachbum]

I think the "planing" problem only occurs when you are mooring Med-style and chuck the anchor over on the way in: the boat is still moving at a significant speed, and the drag of pulling the chain out is enough to make the light anchor "fly" through the water for some way before it hits bottom. You then end up with it much shorter and steeper than you intended - indeed, if it hits bottom very late, it may not set at all.

Clearly this particular problem does not apply to normal anchoring.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Nobody is perfect.
I am nobody.
Therefore I am perfect.</font size=1> /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Guest]

the riding point in all posts basically comes down to one point ..... WHEN SET .......

weight coupled with design is a serious factor in getting an anchor to set. Lightweight anchors are great for ease of handling - but I am yet to be convinced of their advantage in holding.

There are posts here that remark on non-self deploying due to the lack of weight and therefore momentum to carry on out chain etc.
One has stated clearly that he now changed to rope cable to assist this.

I do not believe anchor should be compromised or the overall system. An anchor is an attachment that is affixed to the end of your chosen rode, in my case all chain. I do not agree with lightweight anchors as often supplied with new boats ...... I have a 25lb CQR on my 25ft boat and have no interest to go lighter / smaller. Type of anchor may change later if fancy takes me ... but size / weight not.

IMHO of course ......

My first boat - an Alacrity 19 ... had an anchor with lead plates riveted to the flukes ... design similar to an admiralty Pattern Cast .......but of course a LOT smaller ! about 5lbs actually. With the lead added it came to about 15lb. It worked but I felt it was a bit small and obtained a 15lb CQR. That did an admirable job and the leaded APC was de-rigged from lead and reverted back to original for kedge use.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Start of new Club ?

The all chain and heavy anchor Club ????

I vote for it.

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Start of new Club ?

OK you heavy guys... which is better, a 35lb steel anchor or a 35lb ally one?

i can see that some designs can be difficult to set (have had that trouble with my small fortress) but for the plough-blade type (delta, cqr, plough) what are the downsides of alloy? they seem to centre on thievability, difficulty of breaking out, cost, bulk. is this enough to outweigh the extra holding power?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: Start of new Club ?

Going with your line of thinking, how about a 35 lb plastic anchor. Low density and could be manufactured cheaply any takers. They already make the chain to go with it and it never rusts.

Trevor

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

IMHO - weight is answer

the ally one if same weight will be a lot bigger and I may be old-fashioned and stuck in my ways - those that know me will actually tell different ! .....

but a large surface area will have greater difficulty bedding in ..... simply a matter of force vs area.

In my choices of anchors - I have always balanced weight with size ... to arrive at a solution that will 'cut' through the crap and dig in.

How many times have we seen the old adverts for plastic anchors ....... funny how they don't seem so often displayed now ....

Why should 'planing' be a problem now ? Is it that the weight vs area loading is such that the anchor can 'fly' -------- sorry but brute force and ignorance is my way -

Once bedded in one of the best anchors is an old truck engine block or truck wheel centre ..... many a mooring has sat with these ..... but of course impractical for our purposes here. This illustrates that anything that has a) weight, b) bulk will hold. So the ally anchor will hold once bedded in, the steel will hold once bedded in.

Why do you think the ally one has greater holding power ? Isn't it just that the surface area is greater lb for lb ? That is the true state - not the weight - AS LONG as it beds in.

I am confident that my heavy steel job will bed in more often and in harder ground than your ally one .... so who is feeling more safe at anchor ?

The whole question is subject to so many variables ..... witness poor old Hylas before ...... quoting this test and that .... forgetting that conditions vary so widely in reality that no one anchor is the answer ....

You hear about people who dive and check their anchor after dropping / setting ..... great - but in s.....y solent ..... who wants to dive in there with Portsmouth Outfalls etc.

There are so many that swear by Danforths, Delta's, CQR's etc........ anyone care to write up the list .... ?? Final choice is down to user and personal preference. I do not believe that the price is the indicator of which is best ......

So my modest boat will continue to have main as CQR, back-up as fishermans .... for those weed-infested areas and a grapnel for real daft use !!!

IMHO of course .....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

BONG ! sorry no takers on plastic

The point I make is weight vs size.

A 35lb plastic will be even bigger than an ally one and even more prone to skidding along the bottom surface and not digging in.

Balance of weight and surface area to achieve penetration !! Mmmm - have to be careful with that statement !


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[bedouin]

Re: Start of new Club ?

If they are exactly similar in shape then:

The steel is better in terms of being easier to man handle
The aluminium will probably hold better when set
The steel will set better because it exerts greater pressure

IMHO problems with anchoring are more often caused by problems with the anchor setting / resetting than with it dragging when properly set

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

Re: Start of new Club ?

Agree with Bedouin - when weight is same, but not physical dimensions.

Smaller dimensioned steel will dig in partly because of its compactness in realtion to weight - as Bed puts it - greater exertion of pressure.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[wagenaar]

Re: Start of new Club ?

I had a 35lbs CQR with an all chain rode on my 5.5 ton Koopmans. This anchor dragged every now and then. I used a Fortress as a kedge with a rode of partly chain and partly rope. The first time I used the Fortress I noticed that it went down as a leaf falls from a tree. To correct this I dropped part of the chain first and let it drag the anchor down. This worked OK. I used this method in many different places in the Med. It worked most of the time, but failed also a number of times. In particular in Lipari it started to drag, but I feel that was mainly due to the type of bottom and that in fact almost every anchor would have dragged.
My conclusion is the same as that of others: If the anchor sets, it doesn't matter whether it's made of steel or aluminium or plastic, provided it can withstand the forces exerted upon it by the ship due to wind and waves. I would have doubts about plastic, but not about aluminium. My experience is that a Al-fortress digs in just as good as a steel anchor. I feel that it is the form of the anchor, which determines if it digs in properly and that weight is only secondary.
The argument that on old engine makes a good anchor is not valid for the anchors used on a boat. In this case the resistance of the object if pulling it over the bottom causes it to remain in place. In the course of time silt will settle around the object and therby increasing the resistance to moving it. When the wind would be strong enough it would finally start to move. The essence of an anchor is that it digs itself into the bottom. If it fails to do that, it drags, independent of the material its made of. An anchor will set better the more weight is on the tip that has to dig in.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Start of new Club ?

managed to find a comparison test from the US. of the anchors we know over here the results were:

anchor (lbs) force to drag %set

bruce(44) 560-780 97
CQR (45) 350-3200 62
delta(35) 600-1100 57
fortress(24) 710-4200+ 59

the fortress couldn't be persuaded to drag at the highest loads available in half the cases but before you rush out and buy one, it was inclined to bend rather than re-set in 90 degree windshift tests.

so based on that, if first-time setting is your goal it has to be a bruce, for ultimate holding power a fortress.

i gather there was a test report in YW in jan but the results aren't on the web. anyone have more info on that?

<hr width=100% size=1>