Advice requested on buying first boat - looking at bilge keelers

[Edmundus]

Hi all,
I am in need of advice form thoe who know. I have decided to try my hand at sailing. Always wanted to and if I take to it, I might get something bigger and set off for distant shores one day.
For now I want to keep costs down and have a boit of fun around the coast. I live in the Midlands and Bristol or mid wales are ideal so it seems to me a Bilge keeler could be kept cheaply on a drying berth and also give options to explore shallower water and even cruise up rivers.
I am hoping to go on a weeks course soon to get dayskipper.
Am I thinking right here?
I am currently looking at a Mcwester 26 and a Colvic 26 both priced reasonably and looking very decent.
I worry about buying somethig that rolls about and s difficult to handle or makes huge leeway etc. Why are these great looking boats so much cheaper than similar fin keelers?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ed

 

[winsbury]

Hi Ed,

we are also in the Midlands and had very similar aspirations but were migrating up from dinghies to a yacht and to keep annual costs down went for a swinging mooring on the south coast for cost and access reasons. Unfortunately we rapidly found the mooring impinged on the enjoyment factor and accessibility for non-sailing activities which are inevitable when so far from home. We moved to a marina and although considerably more expensive has transformed the boat into a weekend home from home even when sailing conditions arent ideal.

Ours is also a bilge keeler for all the reasons you cite we thought was a good choice and no regrets so far and talking to others in the marina bilge keels are popular and no one Ive met yet has regretted it. Leeway, particularly on well designed models isnt as bad as you might imagine though obviously small boats do roll and pitch far more than larger ones.

There arent so many new bilge keelers around as fins so I think this contributes to the price differential - make sure you get a really good report done though as it gets mighty expensive putting a badly maintained boat right again.

If you've not sailed before, I strongly suggest you firstly find a sailing club and volunteer yourself as crew, you'll get tons of advice and experience and opportunities to sail mostly for free, then take a course to refine your skills a little before venturing out on your own or committing substantial sums to a boat.

PS: After careful consideration we ruled out Bristol and Mid Wales as novice friendly waters because of the Bristol Channels huge tidal range and fast currents and the Mid Wales weather exposure from the Atlantic / Irish Sea storms and very few safe ports of retreat.

 

[Tranona]

If you look in the back issues of PBO you will find a review of just about all bilge keel boats in 3 issues this year. The boats you have looked at are "cheap" because they are old and generally earlier designs sail less well than later bilge keel designs. However there are many people who find them satisfactory and the challenge becomes finding one in good enough condition to use without incurring significant expenditure in replacements and upgrades. Look at the thread currently running on buying a centaur to get a flavour of the issues you need to consider when buying.

As winsbury suggests a swinging and probably drying mooring in Wales severely restricts the amount of use you can get out of the boat, particularly if you have to drive 2 or 3 hours to get to your base.

 

[trapezeartist]

I will start by saying I know nothing about bilge keelers, but I can pick up on a couple of other points.

First off, the Bristol Channel is not as fearsome as some people make out. Work with the tides and you will travel further and faster than would otherwise be possible. Secondly, a bilge keel isn't necessary for a drying mooring in the BC; the mud is soft and fin keels just sink in.

On the other hand, drying moorings here (or anywhere) will restrict your times of arrival and departure. So will marinas and harbours with a lock, but not so much. There are drying moorings at Thornbury, St Pierre, Pill (Portishead Cruising Club), Newport and probably a few other places as well. You can stay afloat in Lydney, Bristol, Portishead, Cardiff and other places further down. Cardiff is the nearest thing to an all-tide location.

 

[MarcJ]

Hi there,

Myself and my partner have set off down this route! She is a qualified dinghy instructor (at Himley Sailing club, near Dudley btw) and I've spent a lot of time on kayaks in off the west wales coast. We both did a 5 day competent crew course from Gosport in March, to keep the cost down and to see if we would were going to like it. We bought a 20ft Vivacity bilge keeler with a trailer, sails and outboard for £1200 a few weeks later.

We chose to keep it on Clywedog Resevoir sailing club on a swinging mooring whilst we got used to sailing her and added electrics, vhf, lights etc and fixed the topside leaks, and numerous other bits that needed looking at. The moorings at Clywedog works out around £150 for the year, that's for a family ticket plus mooring fee.

The next part of the plan was a sailing trip along the west wales coast for 2 weeks. Got back a week ago. We had a fabulous time! Set off from Aberdovey and got as far as Cardigan, staying at Aberwryswyth, New Quay, Aberaeron and Aberporth along the way. We also realised what is mentioned above about that part of the coast, not many safe havens and the facilities are very basic. Aberwryswyth the only marina type berth we used.

Having said that, we really enjoyed it and were lucky with the weather. Dolphins escorted us out of Aberporth and were a constant presence around New Quay, caught fish and smoked them on board, the sunsets were amazing!

Some photo's are posted here http://www.facebook.com/RiverJones/media_set?set=a.10200231739418167.1073741832.1293019781&type=1
You should be able to see em! I'd post them on here, but my broadband is down at the moment.

We've enjoyed lots of weekends at Clywedog, it's only a couple of hours from the midlands. Our next trip is a 4 day jaunt off the Llyn Peninsular at the end of the month. The boat is on it's trailer at Clwedog, although we found a hardstanding place at Aberdovey for £2 per day.

 

[lancelot]

We were in a similar situation several years ago. We started with a bilge - Newbridge Navigator, 19 feet. Liked the bilge option and upgraded to another bilge - Cobra 850, 28.5 feet. They are great for the Bristol Channel - taking the ground and creek crawling. We are now selling our much loved Cobra, very reluctantly, of course. There are many bilge keelers around and for starting off and taking the ground they are fantastic. We have had a wonderful time. We are upgrading again, but this time it will be a fin. Time will tell.
Have fun.
Fair winds,
Lancelot.

 

[WoodyP]

The Kingfisher range of twin keelers have been omitted from the PBO articles, but all are good ( 20ft, 26ft and 30ft options) if you can find one in good condition. Most owners are very loyal and hang on to them. look at KYOA.org

 

[Allan]

I sail a bilge keeler in the Bristol channel and agree with most of what has been said. The Bristol channel is as scary as you want to make it, I think it is fine. My boat is on a pontoon in Cardiff bay that costs me 600 odd quid a year and has pretty much 100% access. The bay gives you somewhere to play for a short sail or to check the boat after doing some work etc.
Bilge keels are better for a few places in the west of the channel but fins are fine for in the mud.
Lancelot, were you sailing in the bay yesterday?
Allan

 

[Sneaky Pete]

Sailing is an enjoyable hobby nice to see you are looking at some instruction and qualifications. If you are unsure about whether you will like this or not have you considered trying out sailing with a charity or club no real outlay of funds and you get free sailing experience.

 

[William_H]

Yes a sailing course or crewing does give you more than just instruction on how to sail but real local experience on all the problems of boat ownership.
I would suggest that a boat more in the 20 ft size might suit you better. If mainly being cheaper it is less of a mistake if it proves that you are not inclined to being a sailor. This is the biggest problem with boat ownership. You don't really know if you love it until you have owned a boat for a while and tote up the actual use you make of it.
A 20 fter is big enough to camp on and provide shelter and a little comfort in bad weather. It will however be pretty lively in rough water.
Bilge keel yachts suffer from poor windward performance (arguably all that matters) compared to a deep fin keel. If you can find a retractable keel (trailer sailer) you might find better performance with even shallower draft with keel up. Plus the wonderful ability to take it home for maintenance and possibly move to new cruising grounds.
However on the other hand the size of boat you mention will be a lot more coomfortable and stable in roughish water than a 20 fter. You want to buy your last boat first but the trick is to know what will suit. good luck olewill

 

[DuncanHall]

I was in a similar situation to you four years ago. I chose Cardiff because the bay is an excellent place to get to know a boat. I started with a Seal Simbad lifting keel and found it excellent fun but at 22ft long it was not so good in the channel once conditions got more than F5.

As Allan says Cardiff is good value and I believe a very friendly place to sail.

I now have a 31ft bildge keel and this gives the opertunity to dry out at places such as Watermouth which is well worth a visit.

 

[lancelot]

I sail a bilge keeler in the Bristol channel and agree with most of what has been said. The Bristol channel is as scary as you want to make it, I think it is fine. My boat is on a pontoon in Cardiff bay that costs me 600 odd quid a year and has pretty much 100% access. The bay gives you somewhere to play for a short sail or to check the boat after doing some work etc.
Bilge keels are better for a few places in the west of the channel but fins are fine for in the mud.
Lancelot, were you sailing in the bay yesterday?
Allan

Allan,
No, we sail out of Swansea. Currently in the process of changing yachts. Selling my beautiful Cobra 850, bilge keel and today the new yacht will be surveyed.
Fair winds,
Lancelot

 

[Seajet]

Edmundus,

I'm afraid the Macwester and Colvic 26 are good on accomodation ( on a traditional way ) but rather low on sailing performance, and I'm certainly not talking in racing terms just average cruising; they are solidly built though.

Contrary to the comment above, 22' is plenty including across Channel, my 22' has been across over 20 times and similar designs have raced across the Atlantic; it's a matter of getting the right design.

You might consider lift keels as well as twin keelers for drying moorings, and if you can make the Bristol Channel could you go a touch further and get to the Southern English Coast ?

Much more pleasant and easier going on boat and crew ( and yes I have tried the Bristol Channel ).

 

[[70521]]

Hi Ed

Take your time, look at lots and lots of boats, speak to lots of people, ask lots and lots of questions and go sailing on lots of boats. Get a feel for what you both feel happy in. Set yourself a budget for the the capital spend on the boat and then make sure you have a budget for all sorts of things that you never knew you needed!

Can I add a Mirage 28 to your list of boats to view, love mine to bits.

Have you considered the Channel Coast? Opens up trips to France.

Enjoy the journey...

 

[vyv_cox]

Although Cardigan Bay can be a superb sailing location its ports can be extremely tiresome to drive to. I live in North Wales and keep a boat in Milford Haven, another excellent cruising ground, but it takes me five hours to drive there. The consequence is that we need at least a four day window to get down there, get on the water and get back.

Wherever you decide to base your boat make certain that the drive out there does not deter you and your family/friends from maximising the time you use it.

 

[Allan]

Edmundus,

I'm afraid the Macwester and Colvic 26 are good on accomodation ( on a traditional way ) but rather low on sailing performance, and I'm certainly not talking in racing terms just average cruising; they are solidly built though.

Contrary to the comment above, 22' is plenty including across Channel, my 22' has been across over 20 times and similar designs have raced across the Atlantic; it's a matter of getting the right design.

You might consider lift keels as well as twin keelers for drying moorings, and if you can make the Bristol Channel could you go a touch further and get to the Southern English Coast ?

Much more pleasant and easier going on boat and crew ( and yes I have tried the Bristol Channel ).

Seajet,
I agree with everything you say except the last sentence, we will have to agree to disagree I think.
I previously had an Etap 22i which made light work of both the Bristol and English channels. It also had a lifting keel.
When I changed to my present boat, a Westerly 33, I looked at Colvics and Macwesters. After test sails I was put off by the lack of speed. I didn't want a racer but even cruising a knot here and there makes a big difference.
Allan

 

[Edmundus]

Seajet,
I agree with everything you say except the last sentence, we will have to agree to disagree I think.
I previously had an Etap 22i which made light work of both the Bristol and English channels. It also had a lifting keel.
When I changed to my present boat, a Westerly 33, I looked at Colvics and Macwesters. After test sails I was put off by the lack of speed. I didn't want a racer but even cruising a knot here and there makes a big difference.
Allan

I really appreciate all this advice. I keep hearing that Calvin and McWester are slow. In not a racing er, but I'm not known for patience either. The biggest attraction of these boats is comfort at a very affordable price. If I knew I really was getting lot from sailing I'd go for a cat, but I need to start cheaply so if it is under a tarp for a few years it's not a huge financial loss.
I realise that I'll probably be wanting something much better within a few months., but then that will be job accomplished.
I'm very fond of Devon and Somerset. Porlock and Minehead are ok to reach. Cardiff is fine and seems to be great value.
I look at quite a few, but I see them as one season and upgrade, or decide against. I suspect I'll want to be looking far afield, but you never know till you try.

I'm not keen on storms, have been on ships that scared me, that is my main concern.

 

[Seajet]

Edmundus,

I'm glad you can read between the lines, I was actually being polite about the Macwesters and Colvic !

Remember as well as being satisfying enough not to put you off sailing, speed IS safety a lot of the time, if the forecast changes or you don't like the look of things it's nice to get a move on and get into a safe port rather than sit there and get hammered.

Of course one usually has to trade off a big interior and lots of headroom against a boat which won't stop dead in a head sea.

If you're thinking of a taster season then selling on - which is an excellent idea - I'd suggest a smaller cheaper boat, less outlay to worry about and it will teach you the joys of boat ownership which is very different to sailing itself.

There are lots of good boats at relatively low prices, if you're thinking of such relatively short ownership it's really a case of a suitable looking boat which isn't too far from your target harbour to sail / transport.

Don't get a complete lemon though, you might fall in love with her and if not you need to be able to sell her !

 

[Austerby]

Consider a triple-keel Achilles 24. They were made in South Wales and there's a decent number of them still around Cardiff Bay and the Bristol Channel, so they're evidently suited to those areas as well as other parts of the coast. I have one as my first boat and love it: for me, the only limitations are in the lack of headroom down below, but they're fast, great sea boats and easy to handle. Also, not expensive to buy or keep. There is also the fin keel version if you decide that you don't need a triple keel. Look at www.achillesyachts.co.uk for more info, or the Achilles Flickr group.

 

[Manwell]

Marc,super pics, esp. of sunsets.We live nearer Clewedog than you -near Welshpool , and have thought of putting our boat there, so would be interested in your experiences.We also have been looking into sailing up the Welsh coast, and your passage sounded so like what we had been talking about I am eager to learn more.My "e" mail is robert.pursall@live.co.uk. if you can spare any time to contact,please write.I admire your bottle in just "going for it", perhaps you will inspire me (and others) who are not quite so brave.
Robert.