Advice please re damage and insurance

[Brightside]

Firstly a Happy New Year.

A new experience to me, not one I want to repeat but looking for advice and "top tips" please.

New Year hasn't started too well unfortunately!

Whilst moored alongside I was hit by another vessel whilst attempting (and failing) a manoeuvre. The other party has immediately admitted liability and insurers are now notified. (I suppose these things happen and I don't want to add to the other parties misery).

My boat is fibreglass. Damage appears quite extensive with the topside punctured, stainless steel rails mangled over some length and torn from their securings further damaging the fibreglass deck, window frame also mangled. Concern also over mooring cleats with the force of the collision. Access to the steel rails is apparently not going to be possible and already suggestion of cutting open from top to insert stainless bars with ties/ bolts and then rebuilding fibreglass over.

I am told that I need to go through my insurers who will deal with the othersides insurance company (they are different).

My insurers will appoint a surveyor. First question, who is the surveyor acting for? Me or the insurance company? Does it matter? Aesthetics are important to me and I would expect a future purchaser, will they be important to a Surveyor? Window for example is white, but if only the damaged one (of two adjacent) is replaced it is unlikely to be the same shade. Can I insist on either a colour match, or two new windows? I am not seeking any gain, all I want is my boat back as it was - pretty much immaculate.

Any suggestions recommendations on what and how to handle the situation would be appreciated. Never made an insurance claim before.

Connected point the please. Who would you trust to make the repairs? Would you insist on the boat going back to the boat builder given the damage appears to me quite extensive, or would you look at a more local yard, or a team of individuals with the various skill sets necessary.

Here's to happy boating in 2018 although mine may be delayed a tad.

 

[Bandit]

What model of boat?

The surveyor appointed by the insurance co will be working for the insurance co.

I saw one recently where the boat had hull and stern gear damage through grounding, the boat less than a year old went back to the manufacturers the surveyor was less than diligent in inspecting the repairs and they had to be done again by an independent yard. The owner after the first repair was found to be faulty employed his own surveyor.

You could employ your own surveyor at your cost in addition if you want to.

 

[jrudge]

The basic responsibility of the other party is to put you back in the position you were pre the incident.

If this were a car you would also get a replacement so if you have genuine loss of use and need to charter that would also. Be covered I assume ( but do bear in mind any claim will need to be genuine and this is. Not boating season ).

Colour should be the same but matching to weathering is most likely not going to happen.

I don’t know the age or value of the Boat. If young and worth a lot then given the damage seems extensive ( and rebuilding from the top sounds tricky ...) employ your own surveyor.

 

[Seastoke]

you should be claiming for lack of use if it runs into the season ,mooring fees lack of use ,do you use it all year ,also so sorry to hear of your dilemma be strong with the insurance and yes get a surveyor to check before and after would help if went to court take photos and save some you have of her before smash good luck

 

[Jim@sea]

What model of boat?

The surveyor appointed by the insurance co will be working for the insurance co.

I saw one recently where the boat had hull and stern gear damage through grounding, the boat less than a year old went back to the manufacturers the surveyor was less than diligent in inspecting the repairs and they had to be done again by an independent yard. The owner after the first repair was found to be faulty employed his own surveyor.

You could employ your own surveyor at your cost in addition if you want to.

Get a Chartered Loss Assessor (The Insurance Company will appoint a Chartered Loss Adjuster) let him guide you as to how to deal with your claim. (I wonder if the RYA have a list of Loss Assessors) The advantage of using a Chartered Loss Assesor is they save you money in that they only take 10% of what you get paid out bit in many cases the value of the claim is enhanced by the assessors professionnalisme so you could end up with more than you would do if you handled the claim yourself.

 

[jfm]

Sorry to hear all that. There is a lot to get your head around here.

1. In this case I wouldn't hire a loss assessor. I have used one ( I found them not too sharp so I hired the then president of the institute of ch loss assessors, so I have some experience, but he didn't add much and in your situation I wouldn't bother)

2. If you have made a protective claim on your insurance they might have hired a surveyor. This is fine and you can't stop them any way. BUT your insurance company will claim from the other boat owner and his insurer might appoint their own surveyor. BE VERY careful on this as he will be your "enemy". You do not have to allow him access.

3. I wouldn't do it the way the insurers will lead you. I would claim from the other owner. He will claim from his insurer but strictly that is a matter between him and his insurer and you have no relationship with his insurer so tolerate them only on your terms. Don't let them mix up the terms of their insurance of the other guy with your claim against that guy

4. Then I'd hire my own surveyor to compile a claim of my losses and seek early payment on account to fund repairs. I would include in the claim, in this case, a diminution in value element. While you are not insured for that under your own insurance you are free to claim it from the other boat owner, and you should. He will be insured for it.

5. You can't claim for mooring fees. You can claim for loss of use, if real

6. Keep in control. Don't let the surveyors take over and decide, then just have them pay your repair bill for repairs they decide, and with no diminution in value

7. If you manage the claim well you'll be fine. Be sure to understand your position and the legal relationships. Pause and think about who has a contract with whom, and who has a tortious claim against whom. Beware internet stuff where people shoot from the hip (like claiming mooring fees). If anyone resists or doesn't pay as reasonably demanded, follow the protocols then issue proceedings. That usually springs them into action.

All imho. Good luck

 

[MrB]

Sorry to hear all that. There is a lot to get your head around here.

1. In this case I wouldn't hire a loss assessor. I have used one ( I found them not too sharp so I hired the then president of the institute of ch loss assessors, so I have some experience, but he didn't add much and in your situation I wouldn't bother)

2. If you have made a protective claim on your insurance they might have hired a surveyor. This is fine and you can't stop them any way. BUT your insurance company will claim from the other boat owner and his insurer might appoint their own surveyor. BE VERY careful on this as he will be your "enemy". You do not have to allow him access.

3. I wouldn't do it the way the insurers will lead you. I would claim from the other owner. He will claim from his insurer but strictly that is a matter between him and his insurer and you have no relationship with his insurer so tolerate them only on your terms. Don't let them mix up the terms of their insurance of the other guy with your claim against that guy

4. Then I'd hire my own surveyor to compile a claim of my losses and seek early payment on account to fund repairs. I would include in the claim, in this case, a diminution in value element. While you are not insured for that under your own insurance you are free to claim it from the other boat owner, and you should. He will be insured for it.

5. You can't claim for mooring fees. You can claim for loss of use, if real

6. Keep in control. Don't let the surveyors take over and decide, then just have them pay your repair bill for repairs they decide, and with no diminution in value

7. If you manage the claim well you'll be fine. Be sure to understand your position and the legal relationships. Pause and think about who has a contract with whom, and who has a tortious claim against whom. Beware internet stuff where people shoot from the hip (like claiming mooring fees). If anyone resists or doesn't pay as reasonably demanded, follow the protocols then issue proceedings. That usually springs them into action.

All imho. Good luck

Employ someone like JFM to handle it for you.....after reading ^^^^^^^^ that it's a no-brainer lol.:encouragement:

 

[oldgit]

One of our club members with a Sedan 36 was hit (crushed ) by a windfarm support boat while moored in the commercial part of Ramsgate harbour.
The offending vessel skipper at first denied responsibility and claimed the impact was minor with no obvious serious external impact damage ,despite objections, the owner of the Sedan insisted in a extensive internal survey being carried out ,which involved considerable dismantling of the interior of his boat, it revealed serious damage to the hull structure which would not have other wise been revealed.
Although considerable delay was involved in getting his boat back, it proved worthwhile to be very careful indeed regards any rush to sort the problem.
Another club member is still waiting for settlement of claim made against a commercial shipping company started over a year ago.

 

[Brightside]

Gentlemen, THANK YOU, sincerely. Really good advice for me here. I will try to provide some fill-in. Please excuse me some details as I have no wish to embarrass the other boat owner in his (and my) marina.
My boat has been immaculately and professionally maintained and is insured at £250k plus contents. My insurance company I know today currently feel repairs can be undertaken at a local yard with appropriate skills brought-in without the need to return to the boat builder which would incur probably an additional £2000 of costs for road haulage. However, they have indicated that they would review this if I wish to push the point. I am still awaiting quotes so cannot give any idea really of the costs of repair.

Taking the points raised above. This has set me thinking. My year round use is it seems well known, so I would have no problem in having testimony to that effect. I have certainly already lost some days when we would have been out on the water and conditions were good to go. Not sure how I would value those? Perhaps I simply can't. It is planned that I take her to a yard for repair - weather permitting - or engage a skipper - and assume these costs will be allowable. What about a clean down after the works? IMHO when I have had work done before Mrs B, Miss B, Mstr B and I have been the ones cleaning - work dust seems to get everywhere and the outsides this time will suffer from some grinding I imagine. What about the polishing? Do I have to accept a nice highly polished area (where there is now a hole). Top sides are pretty good but to have everything looking the same I am guessing a light compounding may be needed. Finally loss of value. That had struck me. Insurers played down this suggestion, but in honesty I could not deny the incident, would venture that repairs were expertly and professionally carried out but as raised above I am likely to have one bright white window frame and a second by the side weathered and a duller, greyer shade of white. I suppose my guess is a 5% or 10% of value loss?

Again, JFM and all forumites thank you so much. Really appreciate the help here. I've read about insurance claims, but in my ** plus years am in entirely new territory here.

 

[lpdsn]

Not sure how I would value those? .

This may be considered a bit sad but I've kept a record of expenditure since I bought the boat. I also keep the usual log of miles. I can therefore come up with a nominal rate per day afloat/mile sailed (you don't want to ask how much and that is just a saily boat). I also haven't included depriciation. The idea is I pay a certain amount to get a certain benefit (sailing) so if I couldn't go sailing then I've paid that amount and not got the benefit.

You could estimate your annual costs and add depreciation then compare that to the typical usage you get in say Jan to Mar to come up with an idea of what you've lost.

Just an idea.

 

[jrudge]

They must put you back in the position you were pre accident

Cleaning and so on should all be paid for. Weathered vs non weathered I doubt will make a diffeeence but the repairs should match and if that requires polishing so be it. Remember he damaged your boat don’t be humble in asking for it to be fixed and for the gelcoat to match etc.

Re loss of value I suspect this down to how immaculate / original it was and what impact a broker thinks the damage history will have on it if any. What Boat is it?

 

[jfm]

I'm worried that you are unclear on the architecture here.

You say insurers played down the suggestion of loss in value. That's a problem but I can't help you if you write stuff like that without saying WHICH insurer. Your own insurrer won't have coveted you for loss in value.

Then you say "suggestion". It's not a suggestion; it's a CLAIM for damages flowing from an admitted tortious act by the other guy, and you're entitled to it in law. From the other guy, not from your insurer. Focus on the architecture.

Quantification of loss of value claim is not done as per post 10. Your own costs are 100% irrelevant. It's done by reference to renting a replacement boat for the days in question.

I can't be certain but I get impression you are dancing to the insurers' tune. That's your choice but you will just get what they give you. I would do this differently: I would merely notify my insurers then claim directly from the other guy. If he asks me to deal with his insurers as his agent that's fine but it doesn't change my claim one iota. Then prepare a fair but comprehensive claim and send it to him and them. I would demand an on account payment within say 24 days. . If any messing about, issue proceedings (following normal pre issue protocols of course). Issuing proceedings can start the 12% interest clock ticking, which is nice.

I don't doubt the other guy is perfectly decent and "guilty" only of an accident not any foul play but you have suffered here and you should get maximum available compensation. His insurers are paying, not him.

 

[benjenbav]

Not detail but a couple of general points.

JFM references the legal architecture. Contracts are almost always bilateral. I have a contract with you. You have a contract with JFM. I don’t necessarily have a contract with JFM.

Tortious claims are worked out differently. I might have a tort claim if I can prove someone who owed me a duty of care was negligent in discharging that duty.

If so, my damages will be on the basis of putting me in the position I would have been in if the negligence hadn’t occurred, which is not the same as a contractual award which would be to put me in the position as if the contract had been properly performed.

Second, there are yards that can repair your top sides so that they will be good as new and the repair work undetectable. Boats are very fixable.

Good luck.

 

[Sandyshore]

This is an unfortunate case and as JFM states whilst reporting the incident to your insurers prepare your case in any eventuality directly against the other party.
Your own insurers in any event might appoint a surveyor dependant on cost of repairs.
One thing that has not been mentioned relates to an uninsured loss policy often offered for around £20 at time of arranging your crafts insurance. This is a specialist loss of use insurance contract with the likes of ARC legal and DAS wwho will then take up your loss of use claim against the other side.

Cheaper than a solicitor or other legal entity(sorry jfm).

A lot may depend on how pro active your own insurers are in the situation and of course if the other side are reasonable or hard ball

 

[Firefly625]

I think I am going to print out JFM's last two posts as a "what to do in the event of...."

Just brilliant information.

 

[oldgit]

JFM provided some very concise advice many moons ago, proved to be very effective indeed.

 

[petem]

Sorry to hear all that. There is a lot to get your head around here.

1. In this case I wouldn't hire a loss assessor. I have used one ( I found them not too sharp so I hired the then president of the institute of ch loss assessors, so I have some experience, but he didn't add much and in your situation I wouldn't bother)

2. If you have made a protective claim on your insurance they might have hired a surveyor. This is fine and you can't stop them any way. BUT your insurance company will claim from the other boat owner and his insurer might appoint their own surveyor. BE VERY careful on this as he will be your "enemy". You do not have to allow him access.

3. I wouldn't do it the way the insurers will lead you. I would claim from the other owner. He will claim from his insurer but strictly that is a matter between him and his insurer and you have no relationship with his insurer so tolerate them only on your terms. Don't let them mix up the terms of their insurance of the other guy with your claim against that guy

4. Then I'd hire my own surveyor to compile a claim of my losses and seek early payment on account to fund repairs. I would include in the claim, in this case, a diminution in value element. While you are not insured for that under your own insurance you are free to claim it from the other boat owner, and you should. He will be insured for it.

5. You can't claim for mooring fees. You can claim for loss of use, if real

6. Keep in control. Don't let the surveyors take over and decide, then just have them pay your repair bill for repairs they decide, and with no diminution in value

7. If you manage the claim well you'll be fine. Be sure to understand your position and the legal relationships. Pause and think about who has a contract with whom, and who has a tortious claim against whom. Beware internet stuff where people shoot from the hip (like claiming mooring fees). If anyone resists or doesn't pay as reasonably demanded, follow the protocols then issue proceedings. That usually springs them into action.

All imho. Good luck

JFM, how do you claim for this upfront as surely you won't know the diminution in value until the repairs are complete? Surely the diminution in value will be zero if the repairs return the boat to its exact condition prior to the accident?

 

[bendyone]

Not boat related but a few years ago we had a claim with a courier company for some lost items. They said their insurance didn't cover the value we were claiming so they couldn't pay. We said our claim in against you not your insurance company and the Judge agreed with us.

 

[benjenbav]

JFM, how do you claim for this upfront as surely you won't know the diminution in value until the repairs are complete? Surely the diminution in value will be zero if the repairs return the boat to its exact condition prior to the accident?

Pete, the claim is from now where the boat is damaged and could be valued as being worth less than before the damage occurred. A successful claim would lead to the necessary repairs/award of money to carry out the repairs.

 

[benjenbav]

Not boat related but a few years ago we had a claim with a courier company for some lost items. They said their insurance didn't cover the value we were claiming so they couldn't pay. We said our claim in against you not your insurance company and the Judge agreed with us.

That's JFM's point (one of them): The courier company caused the problem and were liable to you for redress. They had insurance to cover them not you. The extent to which they had back-to-backed their own position is a slightly separate matter, albeit of interest largely because that would be (at least in part) where they would expect the money to come from to meet your award.