Advice on buying a new boat

[wicksta_105]

Hi

First post from an on and off lurker, but I’d be very grateful / interested for any advice the group might have (and, incidentally, have greatly appreciated reading a number of the old threads which have been enormously helpful).

Would I be mad to buy a boat?

My situation is that I’m an experienced dinghy sailor through teenage years and early 20s. I used to do a fair bit of big boat sailing with a close friend who had a Sadler 34 in Chi Harbour (day trips, Solent, occasional Cherbourg crossing) and loved it. I have skippered bareboat charter in Greece (which Mrs Wicksta generally enjoyed) on 40'-ish and have day skipper, but don’t have massive recent UK larger boat experience.

I now have a young family (2yr old and 4 yr old) and Mrs Wicksta has expressed interest in buying a small holiday home as close as possible to the sea to have somewhere for a change of scenery during summer hols, etc, not least to help entertain the children. To my mind, nothing is closer to the sea than a boat and she is reasonably open to the idea in principle although she is not a sailor herself.

I would therefore be looking for something that had some floating caravan-esque tendencies (or at least large enough to be reasonably comfortable to live on a for a few days at a time) to serve as a holiday home as well as some sailing.

I am realistic that with children the sailing would be limited, I am thinking brief trips to IoW, exploring harbours, etc rather than more extended cruises and that I would need to start with very low expectations of how much we could do - I suspect to begin with even motoring out, turning round and coming back in again would be an achievement.

Boatwise, I am thinking 30’-35’, to be sufficiently comfortable without being too large/expensive/hard to handle short-handed. Given that we would be doing harbours/anchoring/coastal pootling around I think some sort of shallow draft is important. Mrs W likes the layout of the Moody 346 (CC), and there are a few bilge keel versions around. Alternatively either a shallow draft or raising keel Beneteau 323 or 331, I could get something probably 10/15 years newer than a Moody, which has some appeal from a maintenance perspective.

Locationwise, I know Chi Harbour reasonably well and so am leaning towards Chi Marina just for familiarity. I would need a marina berth as a mooring/tender won’t work with young children and Mrs W. I’m hoping that allowing £8k-£10k a year marina+maintenance would be realistic.

I would be very grateful for any comments/advice/thoughts at all (including being told this is a bad idea, and experience of younger children on boats). Thanks for reading my stream of consciousness!

 

[jac]

Firstly welcome to the forum!!

I was in a similar position to you a few years ago - sold previous UK boat then wife had 2 children so no time / money then came looking for a safe caravanny type boat for a family.

You are right to expect fairly limited sailing with the children. Our first year with present boat I don't think we made it out of the solent! At 2 and 4 I would limit it to 2-3 hours tops to start with.
You should also plan your trips around the children and going to fun places for them / doing fun things with them. SO beaches, places to go crabbing , exploring in the dinghy etc.

We chose a Beneteau 36cc for it's liveability. We looked at the 346 but they were starting to look a little tired and the bunk in the aft cabin was a little short. Time for maintenance will be limited if you are like me so newer is better unless older has had a lot of attention on it!

In addition to the usual stuff about good condition, decent sails. decent engine etc. I would say the key things IMHO for a family boat in no particular order:
Sheltered cockpit ( ideally with an enclosure to provide a dry outside space in the rain or to let kids get wet clothes off after a trip in rain!)
Safe decks that children walk round without too many steps to navigate.
Decent sized place for adults to spend the evening after the children have gone to bed - ( aft cabin with sitting capability or cockpit enclosure)
A view from inside - even for little people.
BIG WATER TANKS
BIG BATTERY CAPABILITY
Decent stowage for "beach" type toys - buckets , spades etc. Also bear in mind as they get older they may want other larger toys. Ours now have an inflatable Kayak which is good fun.
DInghy stowage - ideally on davits or inflated on the foredeck. at a pinch a decent electric pump. Remember that as they grow you will need a larger dinghy. You may just get into a 2.3 now but in 3-4 years you won't so if buying plan ahead and get something like a 2.9 and suitable Ob - 3.5 minimum - ideally 4 or 5
Good autohelm
Easy to singlehand. This really means everything led back to the cockpit, decent self tailing winches, and roller furling main and genoa or at a pinch a GOOD lazyjack system. Stackpack maybe.

I suspect that under 32 feet will be too small - especially in 2-3 years time. Little people do like to move around. they also seem to need a hell of a lot of internal stowage for their gear!!!

Bilge keel is great but also look at shallow fin ( under about 1.6m) I'm not sure how often you will dry out but it may be a limiting factor for weekends when you have one at school and therefore have to limit yourself to weekends and school holidays.
For that same reason - consider Chichester carefully - it's a long way from the sea and IIRC there can be locking delays at peak times which will probably impact you.
I would agree that walk ashore is key - we used it till our girls were 6 and 8 and then moved to a pontoon in the Hamble and use the club launch to get out there which saves about £3k p.a.

Your budget looks ok but does depend entirely on your mooring costs. Assuming you come in at £6k for marina then £11k looks a reasonable budget. You can expect to spend more over the first 2-3 years as you tailor the boat to your needs but should then reduce a little.

I would suggest maybe doing a family charter in the UK to ensure that the children are ok with it. If you do a Monday - Friday type charter they can be quite cheap and the destinations you visit will be quieter. something like a charter in the South west - round to Salcombe and spend a couple of days just swinging from a buoy whilst the kids play on the beach will hopefully sell it to the kids and wife and will be less risk than buying a boat and finding the kids hate it! We did that when ours were a little older than yours and they loved it and spent hours ( and hours and hours) chanting can we buy a boat? can we buy a boat? can we buy a boat? ( after 3 hours we were fed up of it)

Also let the kids choose those things that will impact them, e.g. their lifejackets.

Quite a lot of brain dump of stuff there but please ask if there is anything specific that you would like to know.

 

[Bobc]

Definitely, yes.

Our kids loved being on the boat, every weekend was like a mini-adventure. They loved going to Ryde, Bembridge, Poole, Weymouth, Witterings, Southsea funfair (park in Bath Square), The Folly, etc.

Something 32ft-36ft is what I'd suggest (we had a First 345). Get something that sails well, so that the passage times are short, and that has nice accommodation (Something like a Bav 36 would be perfect). Get a new(ish) boat, as lack of reliability will put SWMBO off (especially with kids on board), and make sure it's got a good autohelm and roller furling sails, as you'll be sailing it single-handed sometimes as SWMBO will be looking after the kids and seeing to their needs.

It's a wonderful thing to do, and the kids get so much out of it.

 

[LadyInBed]

I now have a young family (2yr old and 4 yr old) andMrs Wicksta has expressed interest in buying a small holiday home as close as possible to the sea to have somewhere for a change of scenery during summer hols, etc, not least to help entertain the children. To my mind, nothing is closer to the sea than a boat and she is reasonably open to the idea in principle although she is not a sailor herself.

When I was in that position my wife suggested that we buy a caravan, so I bought my first sailing boat!
Best decision that I've ever made, but you have to fully commit yourself to it to get the most out of it. Sailing isn't a part time / secondary hobby.

 

[roblpm]

My only thought is let your wife choose the boat.....

When the kids get a bit older if you and your wife want to go sailing the kids will have no choice. If your wife decides to stay at home the kids then have the option to stay at home as well and you will be sailing solo......

 

[xyachtdave]

Take the kids to the boat show to climb around some AWB's, (keep them away from the expensive and/or large stuff..!) and I'm sure they'll be keen to try boating.

Don't push your luck with bad weather, long trips or spinnakers for a few years and all will be well.

Our daughter was 3 when we got our current boat, is now 14, sailing a dinghy and still keen to come sailing with me.

I've seen a few people blow family boating in a few weeks to the point the family never come again. Shouting at your missus in nautical speak few of us on here would understand is a great way to ensure disaster......along with slogging your way to France upwind in a F6 and telling the family it'll only take a couple of hours.

Hope it goes well.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

My only thought is let your wife choose the boat...

Is exactly my strategy, it has resulted in a certain amount of, errr, upsizing, but that's maybe no bad thing.

 

[alahol2]

My only advice... With kids that young definitely go for a boat you can put on the beach. We had multihulls but not sure there are any that would suit your budget/style of use at the moment.

 

[wicksta_105]

Thanks very much for all the advice, certainly food for thought.

I hadn't looked at the Ben/Bav 36's but I shall do so, I had been trying to to keep to comfortably below 11m to save a few £££s on marina fees and to keep it manageable.

How do others find managing with children on a slightly smaller boat?

I like the idea of leaving any final choice of AWB to Mrs W - she has in fact suggested that we get a caravan but to my mind a caravan that doesn't float is a wasted opportunity.

I completely agree about not pushing luck with the length/ambition of sails - my intention would be to be incredibly unambitious to start with to keep everything easily manageable. Mrs W has made it clear that she will not look fondly on any getting stressed... And in fairness to her, I've seen far too many people put of (dinghy) sailing by having been shouted at. This was actually one of my reasons for considering Chi harbour, in that it would give the option of a gentle pootle around without going into more open water (even if this was just a motor down to East Head - I know this is cliched/busy/boring by most standards but I am trying to be hugely unambiguous, with the children); I'm conscious of the lock-out delays at the peak times as a flip side to this. The other reason is that Chi is the closest of the Solent marinas to me (I think - I am Kent based), I'm reluctant to spend more to be 30/40mins further way on the Hamble etc. Medway would be closer but I've only sailed there once and it seemed tricky, with perhaps fewer fun places to take the little ones.

Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated.

 

[Mandarin331]

Think long and hard before committing to a very tidal marina, your weekends / days out will be dominated by the tides which will either wipe out whole weekends, cut trips short or frustrate you whilst you wait for the tide. An extra 30 mins driving may be well worth it.

The trick with children is to always focus on making it enjoyable for them and getting them involved, our two year old grand daughter loves to `steer` and generally help out. Also have plenty to do on wet days.

As for boat size we introduced our three children to sailing in a Matilda 20 and my parents took three children on long trips, including round Holland and Chichester to Harwich on a 22ft Dauntless before up-sizing to a 26`er, so 34ft should be do-able However if your weekends consist of motoring a mile down the harbour, dropping the hook and building sand castles on a beach that's a wonderful thing to do with a boat & kids without worrying about ambitious trips.

 

[ashtead]

Hi and welcome to forum
It's not clear if you have chartered with your junior crew but if not it might be worth a try in Turkey or suchlike to see what it's like on board even if only in dry weather . In terms of location Chi is lovely and for small children has advantage of beaches nearby as you say but told by others who have a Motor boat at chi can be crowded. Personally would go for berth with no lock or sill in say Portsmouth even if drive is slightly more as it is more central in Solent and no worries on access hopefully . If you have something with lifting or bilge it removes some worries but limits choice but you might consider a Hunter Legend which has high degree of family comforts for size and might be newer than say the Moody or Westerly bilge keelers . We had a Bavaria 34 as family boat and plenty of locker space for children's kit plus as they grow older would offer separate crew cabins which might be a plus compared to centre cockpits with just 2 cabins . Would also spend time at a few secondhand shows walking around anything in size price range if you haven't been down this road already but it is quite helpful in narrowing choices. as has been said Moody's are good solid boats and we follow the track of a larger 37version which has coast hopped from Gosport to Greece but they did have quite a few repairs before departing so it really is worth considering that time and cost compared to buying newer when by the sound of it you probably want to avoid fixing time on board. Once you have set a size and budget and age the choice shrinks rapidly though . Draw up the list with must haves and that reduces further . Good luck in search and hope you enjoy the results.

 

[Tranona]

All good advice so far. Support the suggestion to do a bit of chartering with the children first to associate the boat with holidays.

As to choice of boat, while centre cockpit boats like the 346 were all the rage 30 years ago more modern aft cockpit boats are more practical with larger cockpits and access off the stern. The twin aft cabins of boats like the Bav 36 and 37 are very practical for small children as the extra cabin can provide good storage while still leaving 2 separate sleeping cabins. Have just sold my Bav 37 3 cabin to family with two small children. Their previous boat was a Moody.

Anyway boat choice is much more complicated than just choosing number of cabins, and one of the things you need to consider is the balance between running a boat, particularly maintenance and using it. In your situation a boat that needs constant fettling is almost certain to take the gloss of the idea for others in the family, so buying a well maintained boat that does not need upgrading or constant "fixing" is perhaps more important.

 

[Angele]

I definitely support the suggestions made by others to charter before you buy, especially as Mrs Wicksta is not a sailor.

I persuaded SWMBO that having a boat would be a great thing to do as a family. It was for the first couple of years, but she never had the passion for sailing that I do and the kids ended up taking their mum's side. As the years went by they came less and less.

So, 12 years on, I still love sailing and I'm out more than ever. The kids are bigger, but none of them wants to sail, so my sailing is all with friends not family.

My advice: make sure sailing is something you and Mrs Wicksta both love before taking the plunge.

 

[wicksta_105]

Anyway boat choice is much more complicated than just choosing number of cabins, and one of the things you need to consider is the balance between running a boat, particularly maintenance and using it. In your situation a boat that needs constant fettling is almost certain to take the gloss of the idea for others in the family, so buying a well maintained boat that does not need upgrading or constant "fixing" is perhaps more important.

Thanks, this is the direction I've moved in as well, in terms of thinking of getting as new a boat as budget will allow to try to keep both maintenance costs low(er) and the time/hassle factor reduced (I'm realistic that a fair amount of cost and hassle comes with the territory but I assume that in general terms there would usually be a material difference between say an 'average' 10yr old Ben/Bav/Jen and an 'average' 25-30yr 346? I know there'll always be good/bad specimens of any age).

I'm now re-thinking the Chichester harbour idea - I hadn't weighed tidal restrictions against 30mins more in the car in quite those terms.

I wouldn't take the plunge without doing some UK chartering with the little ones first. At the moment, i'm just evaluating whether it is worth even starting down this route. Also, letting them do some crawling over some second hand AWBs as well. In fact, does anyone have any recommendations for second hand boat fairs? I've seen mention of one in Lymington to coincide with the Southampton boat show but couldn't find any details for 2016.

 

[Channel Sailor]

My only advice... With kids that young definitely go for a boat you can put on the beach. We had multihulls but not sure there are any that would suit your budget/style of use at the moment.

+1 catamaran, especially for small children. But trying to find one would not be easy. Small family cat's are all very old now and may be somewhat of a project, except maybe Gemini 105's would be worth a look. Cat's are stable so less chance of little persons crashing into something hard and hurting themselves. It is a nice view from the cabin when at sea for who ever is doing the child minding inside. Also plenty of room to take little ones friends as well.

Also suggest budget for a larger than normal amount of money to pay a yard to do jobs because with a family to bring up you might want to spend more time with them rather than doing all the annual maintenance yourself.

IMHO nothing wrong with a swinging mooring with small children once they are walking.

 

[E39mad]

Southerly 110 sounds ideal if the budget allows - sails well - extreme shallow draft and ability to sit on the beach at East Head

 

[Gwylan]

See it as an altenrative somewhere between the caravan and the weekend cottage.

Do choose the mooring that enables you to sail when you want and not at the whim of odd tides.
Do go and sail a few different boats.
Agree to charter for a couple of weekends and see how it works for the family. The first weekend will help you know what you need and do not need and the second will help get a realistic feel for how much you like it - or not.
Would push for a bilge keel, or a boat that can dry flat. That can make a lot of difference when you can do sandcastles.
Also means that you can have half a tide when things are flat and comfortable.

Install a shower head on the stern to wash off feet and so on - money in the bank regarding keeping too much sand out of the boat.

Silly things like make sure the main sheet horse is not across the cockpit.
Also that access below is easy and offers protection for small independent people who want to be able to move around.
Moving about below is easy for small people - no sharp corners and hand holds.
Also a high deep cockpit, centre preferably, that means that it never seems as rough or wet as it is.

Comfort and seakeeping before speed. The difference in speed is never enough to make up for a bumpy sail.

Finally buy your first boat so you can learn what is really important to you and then find as many of those things as you can in the second. That will probably mean a project lasting several seasons. You might be cured by then.

 

[ashtead]

For looking round second hand boats there once were shows at Swanwick so might check if these still happen and nearby always boats for viewing at yard by the Force 4 shop there . Also can see a number at Hamble Point as quite a few brokers there but might be outside budget . Good points made on avoiding mainsheet in cockpit and having stern and internal showers with hot water as good for washing down children and any dogs on board after muddy runs on beach

 

[xyachtdave]

Not sure why the fuss over mainsheet position.

Don't be put off a boat with mainsheet across the cockpit, quite handy if you can helm and control the mainsail when short handed, which you will be with young children!

Gybing is a lot easier too.

 

[James_Calvert]

Sadler 32 worked fine with our little ones, eldest was 3 for our first season when we also sailed a lot with a couple with two older children. The children had the forecabin whilst the adults were in the main. On long passages they'd keep themselves occupied down below, weird pipecleaner daisy chains stretching from one side of the cabin to the other come to mind.

Our other two children came aboard as babies. It wasn't difficult to manage. Mostly we've had a club mooring and dinghied out, but sometimes easier to bring the boat back to the club pontoon to load up.

Echo the point about singlehanding, you'll be without a full-time crew until an older one is useful. Our mainsheet track runs across the cockpit. Obviously we keep it well controlled, using the stoppers to trap the car in one place except when we want to move it.

When your first tender gets a bit small for you all, think about getting another one in addition if you are often on moorings or at anchor.