advice needed - not boaty but very woody

[catalac08]

hi
bought an "oak" front door 3 months ago - this is a Wickes Oak Door which is described as "veneered" engineered oak. I did some soul searching before buying but decided that it could not be a veeer in the traditional sense as this would be compltely unsuitable for an exterior doors and must be an external oak layer laminated onto ply. Anyway at £550 rather tha £800 took the plunge.

My initial instincts were to weatherproof using Deks Olje penetrating oil and then the sealer oat but the instructions with the door were to use only the Wickes Exterior Varnish (not to use penetrating type wood oils) so this is what I used - 4 coats outside and end grain and 3 coats inside.

After 3 months the door has swollen and I have twice cut back into the hinge recess to stop it jamming. The bottom joints outside are showing staining (blackening) showing water is getting in and one or two of the other joints also. To my surprise
inside the door is the same as the codensation on the door results in puddles in each of the panel beading recesses, and the joints inside are showing signs of water ingress and staining as well.

The door measures now 30 inches exact at the top, 301/8 inches at the centre and 303/16 inches at the bottom.

It looks as if the sealant system is failing not only at the joints but also on the flat surfaces although there is no discolouration anywhere else.

How do I retrieve the situation i.e. seal the wood properly now, cover or bleach the discoloured areas and get the door back to its correct size/dry it out, but not necessarily in that order. Would yacht varnish now stabalise the situation and stop it getting worse (with a view to taking off the door and drying it out in the future) or would it seal in the moisture - does varnish breathe?

The varnish that is on seems to have a sort of waxy feel rather than glassy hard like marine vanish, perhaps it is intended to be flexible at the panel joints?

I do not hold out much hope of any redress from the door supplie as it will be very difficult for me to prove how many coats of the recommended varish have been applied before the door was installed..

Any advice from wood experts is gratefully welcomed!

 

[sarabande]

Don't bother trying to fix it. Call Wickes, and explain as calmly as you have done here, that the door is not fit for purpose, and is distorting.

They should not have a leg to stand on as the time is so short since purchase. If there's any hesitation, call your local trading standards office.

 

[burgundyben]

I'd be inclined to return it to Wickes, especially given that you used their own brand varnish on it.

you'll be up against it this time of year to protect it against the weather.

If the internals are plywood I would have expected it to be dimensionally more stable.

 

[tillergirl]

Intriguing. We wanted an oak front door for the new proch we had built on moving in. I went to a specialist door firm in North London who said that they didn't do oak doors because they would never be satisfactory. When they reluctantly answered further questions, it seemed that it was because of the quality of oak that was available and they predicted warping. I discussed this with our builder - an excellent West Mersea man who was surprised as he had fitted several oak doors in his time and had had no problem. He went to discuss it with the joiners he uses and reported back that they thought there would be no problem. So I went ahead and they supplied an oak door made of solid panels. I prepared it with Blakes Classic Varnish and it was fitted. In the first year, it did swell - this was by the mortise lock probably because the inside of the mortise was left bare and therefore could get damp. It obviously doesn't get wet as no blackening has occurred. After a little heart searching, I removed the lock and gently planed the edge straight again and revarnished. Since then (5 years) we have had no problem.

Our door appears to differ from yours in that it is solid and not an oak on ply construction and I think that was the method of construction used in their other hardwood doors by the North London shop who wouldn't get involved (Cotswald I think). If I'm right about that, at least one firm doesn't think the composite construction with oak works. On the other hand, this solid door is fine.

The other issue is the quality of the coating - and dare I say, the quality of the application of the coating. If you have blackening where coated, the coating has failed either because it wasn't good enough or it wasn't put on right.

I suspect Sarabande is giving the best advice and probably with a firm like Wicks you will have no problem. But do you get another door of the same construction?

 

[cliffordpope]

It seems a rather strange question from someone who presumably has experience of or an interest in classic boats.
If you were contemplating planking a boat in fake oak veneer, you would surely want it to be of the highest marine grade, even if you considered it suitable at all?

I've just done a quick google and it seems solid oak exterior panelled doors cost about £400.

 

[andrewbodenham]

I think you have learned something about the variable quality of products from Wickes. I suspect you knew when you bought the door that it was less than ideal. Unfortunately the quality of joinery products from most of the DIY sheds is atrocious, and they take advantage of most householders ignorance about such things to sell rubbish which is not fit for purpose.
Clear finishing external woodwork is a perennial problem , as any wooden boat owner will tell you. There are many preparations in tins which claim to protect, resist weather, remain flexible etc.etc. but few of them realy seem to perform as well as we would hope. I certainly wouldn't put Wickes varnish on my boat, or an exterior door. As a professional woodworker I've made and installed a several oak doors (all solid) and never had any problems with them. I'd recommend coating systems by Sikkens or OSMO. Ideally you'd go for a paint finish outside, because paint gives much better protection from uV attack. Any clear finish can be used on the inside face.

You should take that piece of nonsense back to Wickes and refuse to leave the store until you get your money back. Then shop around for a new door from a proper supplier. You'll probably have to pay at least 50% more for something worth hanging.

 

[Captain Coochie]

Solid Oak is fine for external use , in fact it's great ......

When you see veneered external they do indeed add an extra 0.9mm of solid timber ( veneer is normaly 0.01 ) Might have the figures wrong there but you get the idea . The timber inside is strips of timber that cant be made into anything else ( High grade joinery , structual timbers , low grade joinery , flooring , kitchens etc etc .) I think you will find if they are selling it as a solid oak veneered door then they are using oak strips as the unusable timber to make the door so in effect it is what they say /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

PS the doors in the picture are 100% solid oak and of mortice and tenon construction , its the only way to make a door that will last .

 

[Boatmik]

Beautiful Doors and in tough use!

But not the only way. You could take a door that would otherwise move around badly and seal it with three coats of quality epoxy all over - and I mean ALL OVER and then varnish it.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it in the case of the door being talked about above as it has already moved and it would gradually move back to original dimensions as the moisture slowly comes out through the 'pox which will open up seams again and run the risk of water getting in again.

The epoxy can be applied wet on wet with each successive coat added as the previous one goes tacky to cut labour costs by eliminating sanding between coats.

Keep the varnish up and there would be no problem.

The most extreme example of this method is a friend who made bathroom tiles out of solid timber around 6mm thick. It should be cupping and warping all over the place - but the epoxied timber just sits there happily a decade later.

There are probably other ways of doing it too but either going for the trad construction or this way will work.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

 

[ccscott49]

You bought crap and are now suffering for it, take it back to Wickes and get a refund, not another door, then get a local good woodworker to make you a new one, try a wooden boat yard, they dont often have a lot of work on at this time of year.

 

[PaulJS]

Just to show that it isn't only Wickes, I had a mahogany door made for our house, but despite being liberally coated with Sikkens it started showing numerous cracks on the curve of the window frame and shrinkage on the panels...
The manufacturer at first insisted that this was normal behaviour for a wooden door, however I pointed out to him that his carpenter had routered the window retaining bead, rather than bending a strip of moulding to shape and that a strip approximately 20 mm wide with the grain going across it was not likely to be very durable! In the end he supplied a new door... with square windows! No problems so far.

 

[Captain Coochie]

If you notice on the doors i made the panels are darker on the raised part . This is because they have alrady had three coats of finish before the door was jointed . The picture was taken after one coat on the doors . Timber will always shrink and expand but the trick is not to let the customer see it /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif