advice buying used boat - UK registered or EU for 2021+

[lustyd]

Whatever you decide it's probably worth asking for help looking at the boats from someone with experience when you get there. Surveyors can find things you miss, but in my experience don't find many useful things while finding lots of not useful things to justify their fee. Someone local from the forum may be happy to walk you around and point at things you should look at (for instance weird things in the GRP) and explain why other things won't matter (for instance different weird things in the GRP!). Given the sailing you're looking at doing it will be useful to have someone to discuss things like layout and tankage with. For instance my Jeanneau is a lovelly boat but I can definitely see some things which would make life miserable on a 3+ day sail in heavy weather. I don't do that often so chose to ignore it, but it's useful to be aware of pros and cons Most importantly don't let the tax nonsense put you off, it'll almost certainly be fine for most people doing reasonable things with their boats.

 

[RupertW]

To be fair it very much depends on the wording of the VAT law when we leave. Since we’re still under EU regs we don’t know whether citizenship will make a difference, we just know the current EU wording which may change

Not really. The laws are completely in place in the EU and the UK for goods and imports. It could change by either side after transition but there is no reason to assume it will.

 

[RupertW]

Whatever you decide it's probably worth asking for help looking at the boats from someone with experience when you get there. Surveyors can find things you miss, but in my experience don't find many useful things while finding lots of not useful things to justify their fee. Someone local from the forum may be happy to walk you around and point at things you should look at (for instance weird things in the GRP) and explain why other things won't matter (for instance different weird things in the GRP!). Given the sailing you're looking at doing it will be useful to have someone to discuss things like layout and tankage with. For instance my Jeanneau is a lovelly boat but I can definitely see some things which would make life miserable on a 3+ day sail in heavy weather. I don't do that often so chose to ignore it, but it's useful to be aware of pros and cons Most importantly don't let the tax nonsense put you off, it'll almost certainly be fine for most people doing reasonable things with their boats.

Not great advice just before a massive tax change.

 

[lustyd]

Not really. The laws are completely in place in the EU and the UK for goods and imports. It could change by either side after transition but there is no reason to assume it will.

The current EU laws are in place. The UK are leaving the EU eventually so our laws will change and VAT might be part of that. My last post is based on the fact that change can always happen so we might as well get on with it and enjoy sailing while we can. There are always worries and reasons not to do things, and some people live their whole lives hoping that tomorrow will bring that special day where they disapear.

 

[Marceline]

Hi and just an update - we've found an 1983 boat based in Sicily and Italian flagged.

If we went for that one and began to sail the boat back over various stages to UK waters next year - would that (as things currently stand) not incur VAT with the year being '83, and if we kept the boat in UK waters for a couple of years and would we need to reflag the boat as we are UK residents ?

Or would it be a better idea to keep the boat's EU status and keep sailing it across the channel to France regularly (tbh we like the idea of this if so) ?

 

[lustyd]

In theory VAT exempt is VAT exempt so that should work as long as you have paperwork to prove it.

 

[dunedin]

In theory VAT exempt is VAT exempt so that should work as long as you have paperwork to prove it.

Are any boats “VAT exempt”? I thought that old boats, subject to certain conditions (primarily being in EU28 on a particular date sometime like 1993) were deemed VAT paid. That VAT paid Status will be maintained or lost based upon location on 31/12/20 just like a more recent boat.

The issues for the OP might be around the fact that VAT Returned Goods Relief generally only applies if reimported by same person who exported the boat, and potentially if reimported within 3 years (neither of which would apply here). The U.K. HMRC version of RGR rules aren’t fully define yet, but check the RYA site for whether both of these will be waived.

Also additional issue could be date of purchase. May need to be before 31/12/20 to qualify, but again see RYA as I am not an expert, just reading websites like everybody else.

 

[dunedin]

Hi and just an update - we've found an 1983 boat based in Sicily and Italian flagged.

If we went for that one and began to sail the boat back over various stages to UK waters next year - would that (as things currently stand) not incur VAT with the year being '83, and if we kept the boat in UK waters for a couple of years and would we need to reflag the boat as we are UK residents ?

Or would it be a better idea to keep the boat's EU status and keep sailing it across the channel to France regularly (tbh we like the idea of this if so) ?

Re the latter point, if you are a U.K. resident, you may not be able to bring into the U.K. at all without paying U.K. VAT (ie may not be eligible for U.K. Temporary Import) so the hopping back and forward may not apply.
Again, I am definitely not an expert, just re quoting what other people have said - hence lots of “Mays”. But definitely need to check that out before you decide on your purchase and cruise plans.

 

[Alicatt]

As an additional thought, I've been looking for a boat, and found two I like, one in Italy and one in Norway, I like the Italian one better but love the engine in the one in Norway - Diesel
The VAT and import etc. are quite daunting, the last two boats I've had were in the 1980s and 1990s and were of such that a survey and registration were not needed.

In my personal case I'm currently a British citizen awaiting on Belgian residency with my Belgian wife (family reunification), now, if I get the boat in Italy what are the prospects of taking sailing the boat to the UK for a visit, would I get hit for the VAT? The boat is a 2001 Bayliner. The one in Norway is older at 1997 and still the same model Bayliner but with a diesel engine, GM 6.5 V8 turbo, the engine I know the model as I fitted on to an off road truck I used for work, put around 300,000 miles on it, so I like the engine.

Just now I'm figuring out the costs of getting the boat back here from Italy, I can sail it via the canals and take it to a couple of miles from my house to the marina in the next town, but then I would need to keep the boat in Italy until the weather improves, I have also asked for quotes for transport and await them.

 

[lustyd]

Hmm you’re right the wording suggests vat will be payable. Also the deemed vat paid was an EU rule so may be for the chop when BoJo realises he’s out of pocket money

 

[V1701]

Speaking as someone who has already made sure that they have a wee boat in the EU on the 31st December I don't think you'll go too far wrong whatever you decide with the proviso that either way there will need to be a bit of compromise, flexibility in your plans or, let's say, stealth in order to achieve what you want to achieve in terms of your sailing plans. In your position I'd probably go for a UK boat because, as others have said, it'll be the Schengen visa rules that will trump anything else in terms of limiting the amount of time you can spend in the EU/Schengen area. That and the fact that you'll sail more if you and your boat are in the UK for the next year or two. Best of luck with all your plans...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Hi - we' re looking to buy our first ever boat and are getting increasingly baffled by VAT rules and what may/may not be happening after Dec 31st and hoped for some pointers and advice

We're UK residents/passport holders. Our plan is to be UK based for the next few years and sail mainly around the South Coast/British Isles, mainly as my work means I need to be in UK for the next couple of years. But then aiming to travel over to France/Spain/Portugal etc, and then to cruise around Scandinavia and then hopefully in about 5 years be ready to cross the Atlantic and spend a few years cruising (eventually hoping to make it to New Zealand)

Because of this we've been looking mainly at UK based boats (and a fair few we are considering are 1984 or earlier so hopefully exempt from VAT rules)

But we've also seen a couple of boats based in Portugal and France which we really like (and I think they're registered in those countries, though one is UK registered)

My main question is, based on our above hopes/plans - would we be better buying outside the UK and initially traveling out to sail for short breaks initially so that we can explore more of the EU/Schengen countries later on?

Or, if we did get an older pre 1985 boat that had the documentation re: VAT, would this make things 'easier' re: being UK based and traveling over to the EU for the first few years, then leaving UK and then returning more than 3 years later for our more ambitious voyaging hopes?

Sorry if the above is full of tricky or misinformed questions - we're just increasingly baffled with the VAT/registration situations and we've not a huge amount of funds so we really need to avoid getting into VAT dilemas as much as possible.

Many thanks for any advice

My opinion, buy in the UK, sail around without VAT worries, prepare yourself and your boat for long term voyaging, including visits to the EU with the 90 days in any 180 day rule, then manage VAT in other countries as required when long term cruising plans are realised. I think buying in the EU and moving a boat here post 31 December 2020 could be an issue based on your current plans. Or at least delay any boat purchase from the EU until after 31 December 2020 to see what the VAT implications are. If you buy in UK now, you can always put money aside for future VAT in the EU when you choose to go cruising after being "in the UK for the next couple of years". As for old boats, which any boat from 80's or even 90's now is, the costs to make fit for purpose are likely to exceed any VAT payment. If an old boat is what you can afford then searching in UK waters, where you are resident, could save you a lot of money in the long term. Focus on boat quality, not VAT, if going for an older boat and your budget is limited.

 

[Marceline]

Thanks again everybody for sharing your advice - really helpful and lots to think about

really appreciated.