Adverc oddity

[JumbleDuck]

This winter I finally got round to fitting and Adverc which I bought three years ago. I followed their wiring instructions (I think) including adding the brush connection to the Hitachi alternator. Launched today (yippee) so I got a chance to test it.

According to Adverc the green indicator light should come on when the engine electrics go on, then go off when the engine starts. After five minutes the alternator output should rise.

What happens is that the green light comes on with the engine electrics, then as soon as the engine starts the light starts flashing and the alternator output rises to 19V.

Unplugging the Adverc returns things to normal, plugging it in again has the same results.

I spoke to Andy at Adverc and he is going to test the unit. However, I wondered if anyone has had a similar experience and can diagnose a problem with my wiring? I've gone through tests here - with Adverc disconnected, as I dislike feeding my system 19V - and it all seems to check out OK.

Mind you, this all may be unnecessary, as it seems my alternator produces 14,4V anyway, and the Adverc may be superfluous. Still, if I can get it working I might put in a more standard alternator, so I'd still like to solve the problem.

 

[VicS]

Got the right version for your alternator ?

Make sure the sense wire is connected to a battery which is actually being charged. Either one if using a diode splitter but to the C terminal of a 1, 2, both switch

 

[JumbleDuck]

Got the right version for your alternator ?

I think so. It's a negative control version, which is what they sold me to go with the Hitachi alternator on a 1GM10. Mine is actually a Cargo branded remanufactured one, butt I can't imagine they'd make major electrical changes to it ... though stranger things have happened.

Make sure the sense wire is connected to a battery which is actually being charged. Either one if using a diode splitter but to the C terminal of a 1, 2, both switch

It's well-and-truly fastened to the +ve terminal of the start battery, which feeds the house battery through a VSR. The green light when the engine electrics go on is supposed to say that the system is happy - if you disconnect the sense wire the green light flashes at that stage.

 

[William_H]

It would seem to me that the 19v you measure is either wrong. (flat battery in multimeter) or the alternator is not connected to a battery. It is difficult to get a battery to 19v terminal voltage unless the battery is totally Kaput. it would take much charging to get it that high in the mean time the battery would tend to absorb the high voltage as high charge current. So check the metewr then check actual voltage at the battery terminals. (The actual battery post) good luck olewill

 

[sailaboutvic]

JD I think you may be wasting you time fitting it again , I also have an Hitachi alternator , which pushes out 14. 4 v and after fitting my advert and getting no more then I was getting before , I was told by Adverc in my case there was no point in fitting it . So it sit on the boat disconnected . Never been used but the one time it was fitted .
After saying all that I have fitted them on another boat and they work well .

 

[charles_reed]

This winter I finally got round to fitting and Adverc which I bought three years ago. I followed their wiring instructions (I think) including adding the brush connection to the Hitachi alternator. Launched today (yippee) so I got a chance to test it.

According to Adverc the green indicator light should come on when the engine electrics go on, then go off when the engine starts. After five minutes the alternator output should rise.

What happens is that the green light comes on with the engine electrics, then as soon as the engine starts the light starts flashing and the alternator output rises to 19V.

Unplugging the Adverc returns things to normal, plugging it in again has the same results.

I spoke to Andy at Adverc and he is going to test the unit. However, I wondered if anyone has had a similar experience and can diagnose a problem with my wiring? I've gone through tests here - with Adverc disconnected, as I dislike feeding my system 19V - and it all seems to check out OK.

Mind you, this all may be unnecessary, as it seems my alternator produces 14,4V anyway, and the Adverc may be superfluous. Still, if I can get it working I might put in a more standard alternator, so I'd still like to solve the problem.

Yes - I don't have the balls to let it go over 16V.
It's a brand new unit, the old one which had done sterling service for 23 years was deemed as "beyond economic repair".
I think it may have to do with the fact that modern alternators have more sophisticated regulators and the Adverc is redundant.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It would seem to me that the 19v you measure is either wrong. (flat battery in multimeter) or the alternator is not connected to a battery. It is difficult to get a battery to 19v terminal voltage unless the battery is totally Kaput. it would take much charging to get it that high in the mean time the battery would tend to absorb the high voltage as high charge current. So check the metewr then check actual voltage at the battery terminals. (The actual battery post) good luck olewill

The 19V comes from a battery monitor, attached to the battery. And boy, does it absorb charging current - plugging in the Adverc at tickover almost stops the engine ...

JD I think you may be wasting you time fitting it again , I also have an Hitachi alternator , which pushes out 14. 4 v and after fitting my advert and getting no more then I was getting before , I was told by Adverc in my case there was no point in fitting it . So it sit on the boat disconnected . Never been used but the one time it was fitted .
After saying all that I have fitted them on another boat and they work well .

Thanks. Having gone to the trouble of fitting the thing, I'd like to get it working (or at least workable) in case I ever fit another alternator which makes use of it.

 

[sailinglegend420]

.... I also have an Hitachi alternator , which pushes out 14. 4 v and after fitting my advert and getting no more then I was getting before , I was told by Adverc in my case there was no point in fitting it ......

I think the "advice" from Adverc is wrong!

Your 14.4v alternator will output 14.4 volts when it starts, but as it gets hot the output will fall because of the inbuilt temperature compensation. It is also a constant voltage charger whereas an external regulator starts as a constant current device to deliver a higher current and then changes to a constant voltage charger during the absorption phase. It then drops to a float voltage which the Hitachi alternator will not do. So to sum up all the advantages of an external regulator, even if your internal regulator is producing 14.4 volts.

1. A good external regulator will be a multi-stage device that can raise the alternator output voltage and charge the battery faster, and reduce the output when the battery is fully charged to prolong the battery life.


2. It should have settings for different battery types, but it should also be programmable to match the alternator and battery bank sizes. Balmar's regulators allow many parameters to be changed, for example they may set the Boost voltage to 14.6, hold that for 45 minutes and then reduce it to 14.4 for the duration of the absorption stage. They can be programmed to stay longer in the absorption stage without dropping down to float too early.


It is worth noting that with sealed batteries most battery manufacturers recommend that you use a multi-stage regulator to drop the charge down to float mode at 13.2-13.8 volts to avoid gassing and overcharging. This is a condition of the warranty on some batteries.


3. It will delay the charge current for about a minute at start up until the engine oil is well distributed. A 100 amp alternator draws 4 HP which is a heavy load on an engine when starting with a weak battery.


4. It will also accept a sensor to measure the alternator temperature and control the charge rate. Even a 100 amp alternator could be providing 15 amps to the boat systems, another 25 amps to say a watermaker or an inverter, and then a heavily discharged bank may be demanding 50 or 60 amps. In this situation the batteries may not get charged and the alternator will burn out from continually trying to deliver its maximum output if not protected by a temperature sensor. It is often too easy for the alternator on a boat to get too hot if used for long periods.


5. It will also accept a sensor to measure the battery temperature which will rise with a heavy charge current. At 25ºC batteries start to gas at 14.4v, at 40ºC they gas at 14v so the external regulator will reduce the charging voltage automatically to compensate for this. If batteries are fitted in an engine compartment it is very easy for them to get too hot and lose water. This is fatal for sealed batteries. Sailing in high temperature regions may mean the batteries are already at 35C before charging starts.


6. It will have a voltage sensor at the battery not on the alternator. This will compensate for split diodes or losses on cable runs to the battery.


7. A Balmar regulator has a “small engine mode” that allows you to cut the output to 50% with a switch to reduce the alternator load on the engine when you suddenly need extra power in a big sea. It also has belt manager to reduce the load on the alternator. A 100 amp alternator set to 70% will run cooler and produce 70 amps instead of 100 amps.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think the "advice" from Adverc is wrong!

Your 14.4v alternator will output 14.4 volts when it starts, but as it gets hot the output will fall because of the inbuilt temperature compensation. It is also a constant voltage charger whereas an external regulator starts as a constant current device to deliver a higher current and then changes to a constant voltage charger during the absorption phase.

You appear to be describing systems a lot more complicated than an Adverc.

 

[sailinglegend420]

You appear to be describing systems a lot more complicated than an Adverc.

I still think their advice is wrong.

I did say in my summary ".. A good external regulator will be a multi-stage device...."

It appears that your Adverc is not such a device, but it does till have the external voltage detection and temperature compensation so is definitely worth fitting.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I still think their advice is wrong.

I did say in my summary ".. A good external regulator will be a multi-stage device...."

It appears that your Adverc is not such a device, but it does till have the external voltage detection and temperature compensation so is definitely worth fitting.

According to the Adverc instruction "The ADVERC begins to control when the battery voltages reaches a nominal 14.0V ... After 5 minutes there should be a distinct voltage 'jump' to 14.4v for 15 minutes, before returning to the low voltage mode." My alternator produces 14.4v when left to its own devices, so since the Adverc can't drop the alternator output it's difficult to see what it's going to do.

However, I have seen a claim that Hitachi alternators like mine drop the output voltage as their temperature rises to protect the alternator. If that's true then the Adverc may be able to do something as the alternator heats up. Of course whether I'd want to override something the designers of the alternator think important for its protection is another matter ...

The Adverc will go off for testing tomorrow ... if it's OK I can start worrying about my wiring and alternator.

 

[pvb]

The symptoms you've described are the result of either a faulty Adverc or a faulty sensing wire connection.

I've experienced a similar voltage rise to 19v when one leg of the splitter diode failed and the Adverc, unable then to sense any charge at the battery, simply increased the alternator voltage and boiled the starter battery dry.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The symptoms you've described are the result of either a faulty Adverc or a faulty sensing wire connection.

I've experienced a similar voltage rise to 19v when one leg of the splitter diode failed and the Adverc, unable then to sense any charge at the battery, simply increased the alternator voltage and boiled the starter battery dry.

Many thanks. When I was setting up the new 12V system I at one point powered up the engine circuit with the engine battery disconnected. The Adverc, as it should, flashed its green light at me to say "I'm switched on but can't detect the battery you want me to charge". Now that everything is in place, switching on the engine gets a steady green light, and it's only when the engine starts that it starts flashing to say "something's wrong". However, I like your reasoning and will check the battery sense wire when I am next at the boat.

 

[Tintin]

I thought the battery sense wire went on the house bank +ve?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I thought the battery sense wire went on the house bank +ve?

I have a VSR between the engine battery and the house bank. If that failed to operate for any reason then I'd be sensing a battery to which the alternator was not connected, so I have chosen to sense the engine battery. The connection between the batteries and through the VSR is all 20mm², so I don't expect the voltage loss to be significant.

Hmm. I have just notice this in the installation instructions:

The WHITE leads can be connected to the thermistor either way round, but there must be a good connection. An OPEN-CIRCUIT situation causes the alternator to go into FULL OUTPUT. A typical resistance value, measured across pins 8 and 9 at the main plug, is 4-10Kohm, depending on ambient temperature.​

That sounds like something to check too.

 

[sailinglegend420]

,,,,, I have seen a claim that Hitachi alternators like mine drop the output voltage as their temperature rises to protect the alternator. ....

As the temperature rises the output voltage is dropped NOT to protect the alternator but to protect the batteries and stop them gassing too much. At 25C they begin gassing at 14.4v, at 40C they gas at 14v. The temperature sensor is on the regulator and it assumes the batteries are also next to the engine and are reaching the same temperature. On a boat they should not be near the engine, especially if they are sealed. This is the main reason an external regulator is necessary otherwise the alternator output voltage can unnecessarily drop to less than 14v which will take much longer to charge the batteries.

 

[JumbleDuck]

As the temperature rises the output voltage is dropped NOT to protect the alternator but to protect the batteries ...

Thanks. That makes much more sense than the other claim, which came from a source which I think is more often emphatic than it is wholly accurate ...

 

[pvb]

However, I have seen a claim that Hitachi alternators like mine drop the output voltage as their temperature rises to protect the alternator.

The Hitachi regulator is described by Yanmar as being of the "over-heating compensation type", and it's clear that the primary purpose is to limit the alternator temperature in extreme conditions. However, it can (as sailinglegend420 said) also help to protect batteries. Anyone with one of these units should give some thought to engine room ventilation.

 

[sailinglegend420]

The Hitachi regulator is described by Yanmar as being of the "over-heating compensation type", and it's clear that the primary purpose is to limit the alternator temperature in extreme conditions....

Yanmar actually say: it is of the over-heating compensation type and can automatically adjust the voltage to the most suitable level depending on the operating temperature.

Nothing about extreme conditions!

A good regulator can adjust the output voltage to match the correct gassing voltage of the batteries AND adjust the alternator current output independently of the voltage if the alternator overheats in extreme conditions.

....Anyone with one of these units should give some thought to engine room ventilation.

This won't help cool the alternator - it will get very hot because it is being asked to work too hard charging a big deep cycle battery bank, not a starter battery.

 

[pvb]

A good regulator can adjust the output voltage to match the correct gassing voltage of the batteries AND adjust the alternator current output independently of the voltage if the alternator overheats in extreme conditions.

It can, but that needs a sophisticated external regulator. The Hitachi regulator's temperature compensation is primarily to protect against over-heating of the alternator.