Adding copper powder

[zoidberg]

I'm very nearly/almost at the stage of slathering on antifoul paint, and I have sufficient Jotun SeaQueen stuff squirreled away for the job. This is intended to be applied over an existing coat of Jotun Vinyguard 88 Primer/tiecoat, which has been 'in situ' for a few years. (!) Opinon varies are to whether this is 'good to go' after a gentle scour-washdown, or needs another layer of fresh '88'. BTW I have a 'HSE-licensed specialist' on hand to oversee Good Practice and issue me with a sheaf of sustificates.... if really, really wanted!

Members of my club on the intensely-fouling Tamar recommend adding in several kilos of copper powder to whatever antifoul paint I use - as they have done - and I'm querying this idea.
I have waded through the old PBO thread HERE without becoming much wiser. ( 'par for course', did I hear? )

Any insights to add?

 

[Corribee Boy]

If it was that easy, wouldn't Jotun have thought of it? Or is it just too poisonous to be allowed? It does seem believable. Other nostrums such as capsicum and Glyphosate are also suggested but don't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

 

[[3889]]

BTW I have a 'HSE-licensed specialist' on hand to oversee Good Practice and issue me with a sheaf of sustificates.... if really, really wanted!

Any insights to add?

It is a misconception that Jotun refuse to supply Seaqueen on the basis of H&S. If you present a vessel coding certificate to a supplier, demonstrating professionalism as a seafarer rather than a boat maintainer, they will sell you Seaqueen. Jotun's refusal to supply Seaqueen to the leisure market is based solely on the, seemingly correct, assumption that people with pleasure boats will pay a higher price for a lower quality product.
BTW, I tried the much vaunted addition of chile powder to a small area of AF and that didn't work either.

 

[zoidberg]

It is a misconception that Jotun refuse to supply Seaqueen on the basis of H&S........they will sell you Seaqueen.

I'm pleased to hear that.
There was me thinking I might need to make a trip via Lerwick to Norway, to buy some more.....

 

[Rappey]

Was chatting to a fisherman today who was antifouling his boat.
He told me he added lots of copper powder to the previous coat of AF and it fouled up quicker than if he didn't add any.
We concluded the paint does not work like the special epoxy does with copper coat preventing the powder from leeching out or its messed with the AF formula ,ruining it.

 

[Neeves]

In any event you don't want to use copper powder but copper flake. It will leaf and present a larger surface area.

2 issues - the copper will react with the resins in the paint system, possibly forming compounds that lack the AF properties of the copper. Secondly the paint maker specifically designed his paint system to work with a specific solids content. To be of any value, or a value you can measure (good or bas) you are going to alter the effectiveness of the resin that holds the paint together. So expect the paint to ablate more quickly (I don'r recognise the brand names you use - ours (Jotun) names are different to yours).

You will note that CC demands a good scrub to expose new, fresh, copper. The implication is you need the fresh copper. You cannot do this with a paint system as the resin will lack the strength to allow you to expose the copper, without rubbing the copper away. When sourcing I think you will need a coarse flake, not a fine flake - so a 'gravure' powder not an 'offset' powder, or maybe even 'dusting' (use these terms - they will understand - immediately).

If you want to source copper flake contact Eckart or Schlenke, no-one else makes copper flake, both German companies but both have sales in the UK. Copper flake is a 'special' they both commonly sell a polished brass flake, called bronze, for printing and some paint systems - a replacement to gold leaf. Eckart is now owned by Altana and may sell under the Altana name, not Eckart. Eckart is bigger than Schlenke.

Both used to sell coated flake to overcome the issue of tarnishing in the resin system.

As mentioned earlier - if adding copper was beneficial - in the manner you suggest - the paint maker would have tried it. If adding copper flake, or coated copper flake, was beneficial - it would have been tried and we would all know about it.

Here I would suggest you try to source Jotun Sea Quantum ULTRA. They make 4 grades, one for idle vessels, one for slow moving vessels, one for high speed vessels and an intermediate one (don't recall the recommended boat speeds). These are commercial systems to be applied by professionals and are not licensed for leisure use. But they are the best things since sliced bread. If you can prove commercial use and professional application you would be able to source them BUT they may come in big drums, so big you cannot lift them (guess how I know) - here they re-package into 20l pails - but they are still a struggle and a struggle to mix. Hempel make an equivalent called Globic here. Both are better than International's latest Micron offerings - but not that much. If you cannot source SQ or Globic, of find it too much like hard work trying to source - simply buy the best that International offer of their Micron formulations apply two generous coatings by roller - DO NOT SKIMP - and you will get a good 2 years life - as long as you use the yacht regularly.

Leave the yacht for a period (further lockdowns) - it will collect slime and the fouling will sit and live on the slime insulated by the slime from the paint below. As it grows it will become big enough to be able to live without the slime and will simply grow and grow. If you go for Jotun SQ use the slow moving paint or maybe even the paint for stationary vessels. I think the Ultra is second fastest (which is what we use).

You will need a completely separate system for your prop.

Good luck

Jonathan

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

About 20 years ago there was a lot of discussion on the forum regarding the addition of hot chili powder to the a/f, but it has now become common knowledge that creatures lower down the order of creation do not experience the hot sensation from eating chili that we humans do. Indeed, the (quite) hot chilis I grew last year were first attacked by slugs and then by birds, who enjoyed the seeds.

 

[Neeves]

Spirit - Agreed - Our chilli are eaten by possums, bandicoots and bush (aka brush) turkeys (sort of small emus). We have not tried chilli in AF, we only grow enough for ourselves and the local wildlife.

Jonathan

 

[Spuddy]

Got a vague memory that the chilli myth was a spoof from an April issue of PBO. Another year an April article was about the threat posed by the polyestermite which nibbled grp like gribble and teredo chewed wood.
Anybody remember any more

 

[ANDY_W]

Polyestermite was the subject of a spoof article written by Bill Bevis in Yachting Monthly.
In the article, he reported that polyestermite infestation was particularly concerning because
the creature had a mouth at each end and, consequently, was far more damaging to GRP boats
than teredo or gribble were to wooden boats!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Got a vague memory that the chilli myth was a spoof from an April issue of PBO. Another year an April article was about the threat posed by the polyestermite which nibbled grp like gribble and teredo chewed wood.
Anybody remember any more

Glyophosphate is also unlikely to work, as it's only effective on higher plants, and not on animals. Algae, tube worms, barnacles and sea squirts are unlikely to be affected - indeed, unless you have sea grass growing on your hull, there are few fouling organisms that it's likely to affect.

The problem with antifouling is that it has to cope with a very wide taxonomic range, including bacteria, algae, molluscs, crustaceans, ascidians (sea squirts) and no doubt others. Something that deals with one might not touch another. So antifouling has to be toxic or otherwise effective over an incredible range of organisms. That means either broad spectrum poisons, like copper, or something that attacks fundamental biological pathways; the obvious danger is that anything attacking those fundamental pathways might attack us or other higher organisms - remember TBT? There are also those that make it difficult for organisms to adhere - but they require almost constant motion through the water at speeds high by recreational standards, and so are ineffective on recreational craft. Research is being done into the biological signals involved in the settlement of organisms, but it's a long way from being commercial.

Fouling is a major economic concern, so a lot of research is being done into preventing it! But it's a VERY difficult problem, as something that deters one kind of organism might well encourage another.

 

[Neeves]

Glyophosphate is also unlikely to work, as it's only effective on higher plants, and not on animals. Algae, tube worms, barnacles and sea squirts are unlikely to be affected - indeed, unless you have sea grass growing on your hull, there are few fouling organisms that it's likely to affect.

The problem with antifouling is that it has to cope with a very wide taxonomic range, including bacteria, algae, molluscs, crustaceans, ascidians (sea squirts) and no doubt others. Something that deals with one might not touch another. So antifouling has to be toxic or otherwise effective over an incredible range of organisms. That means either broad spectrum poisons, like copper, or something that attacks fundamental biological pathways; the obvious danger is that anything attacking those fundamental pathways might attack us or other higher organisms - remember TBT? There are also those that make it difficult for organisms to adhere - but they require almost constant motion through the water at speeds high by recreational standards, and so are ineffective on recreational craft. Research is being done into the biological signals involved in the settlement of organisms, but it's a long way from being commercial.

Fouling is a major economic concern, so a lot of research is being done into preventing it! But it's a VERY difficult problem, as something that deters one kind of organism might well encourage another.

In addition, some of the, silicones, I assume that is what the Pilot refers to when he mentions:

"There are also those that make it difficult for organisms to adhere........"

have warnings of the possibility of them containing carcinogens, and I note that when applied on commercial vessels the operators work from sealed suits and subsequent removal is a nightmare.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

I'm persuaded not to bother with 'added copper', chilli pepper, vegemite or brylcreem.

Plain vanilla antifoul paint for me!