adapting - sailing again 30 years on

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Chae_73

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how to summarise?

I learned to sail with my father in dinghys and then yachts, we were largely self taught, figured it out as we went along. by the time I was 18, I was a moderately competent sailor.

30 years went by where we didn't sail. Now I'm 48, he's 73 and I have a 17 year old son (and a younger one but he wasn't here today).

We bought a boat at the end of last season but haven't done a great deal of sailing this season, so this boat is still quite new to us.

Today we took the boat from it' mooring on the Deben round to the Orwell, It was a beat into F3-F5 with a typical choppy sea. So it's me, my 73 year old father and my 17 year old son. My son likes sailing but has no experience or training.

The problem I find is that I'm stuck to the helm. So I can't get the sails trimmed as I would like or do anything much other than helm. We are slightly pressed at times, I'm luffing a little in the gusts. One time I get it wrong, pinch up too far and back the genoa, not enough way on the boat to get her back on the right tack and there is a minute of confusion until I realise we need to let off the foresail sheet.

I'm not really happy about how we are sailing, we seem stopped in the water at times and then healing too much (rationally I think this is because the hull is quite foul after a season of mainly being on the mooring and the poor sail trim, but at time time it was worrying me).

On a more benign point of wind I would have put on the autohelm but I don't think it's going to work in these conditions (in fact, it probably would have).

So we achieve this trivial passage with a couple of minor alarms and get to where we where headed for (SYH). The crew enjoyed the trip. Whilst I was satisfied that we achieved our objective, I'm thinking that we need to become a bit more effective.

1) maybe I should have stuck on the autohelm and taken over sail trimming duties?
2) how do I help my son learn enough to take the helm / mange the boat?
3) should I encourage my father to grow or re-learn his sailing techniques?
4) get some crewing experience myself, get my confidence back, learn some more?
 
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my first quick thoughts:

You did not mention about having enough time to put the kettle on and make tea for the crew.

Depends on the boat, but first ensure you can sail it well in max wind speeds that do not need any reefs and no excessive heeling. Either Solo or with reasonably agile proficient crew. If too windy then save it for a better day. Use the autohelm plenty. Don’t sail yet upwind if anyone on board has to hike or could accidentally slide around the cabin or the deck.

Introduce the 17 year old to dinghy racing, maybe as crew, maybe in a local club or maybe a one week holiday dinghy sailing. But importantly not taught by you and he learns to sail in the company of his age group.

Assume your Father will be a passenger but a bonus if he can: helm, navigate, keep eyes out all around.

You crew occasionally on another yacht (with an experienced skipper/opener) in more arduous conditions to get your confidence and skills back. Maybe find an experienced crew to sail with you occasionally.

then all get back together on a nice day and have a lovely relaxed sail. You should plan to be able find enough sea room to stick the autohelm on, tweak the sail trim, leave the novice crew on deck to just keep at look out, then you go below to make them a mug of tea. Everyone on board should be comfy, relaxed and enjoying themselves.

Only then build up to the F5/F6 thrash to windward, one reef in and your son and his mate hiking for a bit of excitement.
 
Your sailing journey and age are very, very similar to my own - though I had the luck to crew for a brilliant skipper for a while.

My first thoughts are that f3-5 with the same amount of sail up is asking a bit much. Yachts aren't dinghies, you can't correct a gust by just leaning out a bit further or spilling wind from the main if you can't reach the sheet. A lot of what sounded like hard work would have been a lot easier with a reef in - you're trying to get comfortable right now, not race.

Second thought is - why do you have to trim the sails when you have young crew? He won't learn it if he isn't doing it - just teach him how to handle a winch safely, and what he's looking for (luffing, etc). You're not single-handing, give him something to do :)

And when the boat has calmed down a bit there's all the time and comfort for your dad to make everyone a cuppa without being thrown onto the cooker - happy days
 
Don't beat yourself up, everyday is a school day :)

1) Yes, stick the autohelm on! Even if it's just for a minute to allow you to adjust something. If you feel you're over pressed, then put it on and reef down.
2). On a calmer day, have him sit next to you on the helm and talk him through the basics. Then let him take the helm and let him make mistakes. Explain how the tell tales work, and challenge him to sail as close to the wind as he can without losing power. Just make it all a fun game.
3) Take it easy, and just casually suggest he takes the helm, or 'could you just let the genoa out for me", he's probably desperate to have a go!
4) All experience is good experience, grab anything you can get :)

Getting your kids into dinghy sailing is a fast way to learn, but they have to want to do it. It might just need a suggestion from you and they will jump at the chance. One thing that got my 8 year old hooked on sailing was playing eSail on my laptop, now he won't give me the wheel!
It's surprisingly good, and the tutorials are really good and stress free way for someone to learn what the basics on the boat are.
 
Just keep on doing what you are doing however do choose your weather better. ie light winds to make crew more comfortable. Do get reefing organised for a more relaxed sail in stronger winds. Both father and son should be given lots of helm time. Perhaps not so much if you are hard on the wind that comes with more practice. Especially for 17yo you need to give him lots of responsibility. That makes them love it. Indeed my sons were taking boat out with mates much younger than that. Now I call the younger now 40, captain and I leave decisions and sailing entirely to him while I watch. He lets me steer sometimes when he is on fore deck putting up spin. ol'will
 
Welcome back to sailing.
Can I just suggest one key thing I learnt the hard way many years back . Other than perhaps going on/off a marina pontoon .... the skipper should never be on the helm. He should be skippering (I often do so from near the backstay for a good view).

Given instructions to steer to a shore based feature, your son would be able to hold a course within 5 minutes - and by the end of the trip probably much better than you at holding a course. Ditto, unless the boat has excessive weather helm (in which case get the reefs in) your father is a junior by this forum standards, so can take the helm.
I have had 6 year olds and my first time on board a boat 75 year old mother helming safely in a straight line, under supervision.

Again, for tacks etc perhaps father on helm, son on new jib sheet. Skipper calling tack and easing old jib sheet.

Might help if tell us type of boat. And perhaps going out in lighter winds a better idea.
But another thing I often do with inexperienced crew is preset reef 2 and hoist mainsail reefed. Start like that, and if all going well start to unreef. Easier to do that when boat is level than reef when heeled.
Happy sailing.
 
Thank you for the replies, lots of good advice.

I can see that it would have indeed been better to get the crew onto the helm, not least so I could have made tea!

On the weather, the forecast was not concerning although did show the wind building to a peak of 18-20 knots for a brief period at around 16:00, which was exactly what happened. We were off Landguard point at this time. By the time we were into the shelter of the Orwell, it was pretty calm again as it had been leaving the Deben. It wasn't a day I would have chosen for sailing practice, it was a matter of wanting to get the boat to its winter berth.

Sail trimming - the crew were working the sheets fine but I wanted to move the genoa car and also tension the mainsail outhaul, both of which would necessitate going forward. The genoa was partially reefed and not setting that well.

There wasn't much weather helm; the boat was bouncing around a bit and sometimes stalling a little with loss of steerage. I felt that better sail shape would have helped this. A reef in the main would have made things a bit more comfortable. As noted above, would have been prudent to set off with a reef in.

The lad has taken the helm in the river under engine and quickly worked out what to do.

The boat is a Westerly Storm 33.
 
dolabriform said:
Getting your kids into dinghy sailing is a fast way to learn, but they have to want to do it. It might just need a suggestion from you and they will jump at the chance.
Click to expand...

Encouragingly, lad asked me about this as we were bouncing our way towards Harwich

"does the dinghy work the same as this boat, dad?"
"yes, except the dinghy doesn't have a lead keel so it can tip over"
"so If i learn in the dinghy, i'll be able to sail this boat?"
"yes, 100% right!"
 
dunedin said:
Welcome back to sailing.
Can I just suggest one key thing I learnt the hard way many years back . Other than perhaps going on/off a marina pontoon .... the skipper should never be on the helm. He should be skippering (I often do so from near the backstay for a good view).

Given instructions to steer to a shore based feature, your son would be able to hold a course within 5 minutes - and by the end of the trip probably much better than you at holding a course. Ditto, unless the boat has excessive weather helm (in which case get the reefs in) your father is a junior by this forum standards, so can take the helm.
I have had 6 year olds and my first time on board a boat 75 year old mother helming safely in a straight line, under supervision.

Again, for tacks etc perhaps father on helm, son on new jib sheet. Skipper calling tack and easing old jib sheet.

Might help if tell us type of boat. And perhaps going out in lighter winds a better idea.
But another thing I often do with inexperienced crew is preset reef 2 and hoist mainsail reefed. Start like that, and if all going well start to unreef. Easier to do that when boat is level than reef when heeled.
Happy sailing.
Click to expand...

Agree with all of that. I normally put the least confident crew on the helm because it is the easiest position to coach, provided there is not a lot of traffic and collision avoidance or a need to weather some critical obstruction. Putting inexperienced people on the helm also counteracts the confidence issues they will feel as they will perceive the helm as the most important job of all. Unless I have another experienced person then I'll usually do the deck work which for us means winches and dumping the main sheet in gusts. If the OP had been in a position to dump the gusts himself he may have found the boat stalling less because he wouldnt have to luff up, but I dont know how the mainsheet is arranged so dunno how easy it would be to do. This should also be a job the 17 yr old can easily enough be introduced to?

To the OP, dont worry too much about events on a delivery trip as this was, look for a nice day with a F3-4 to go out and let everybody have a play. Your circumstances are similar to mine in that I sailed a dinghy with my dad in the 80s and bought a boat in 2011 having had nothing to do with sailing in the interim. My dad was 65 at that point and unfortunately his re-introduction didn't go well; he panicked at sea conditions in a F3, flatly refused to ever stay onboard overnight, and over the last ten years has come only as a passenger when day sailing in fair weather. In comparison I have a pal whose dad is the same age as yours and who is the core member of his crew doing offshore passages across the north sea. You don't know how it will go- I didn't see my dad being so reluctant (neither did he) and back in the day had rather been counting on him to be regular crew- so starting softly may be a good idea.

Kids are less easy to frighten cos you're their dad and they trust you- dads are easy to frighten because you're their kid and, basically, they dont ;)
 
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I've not sailed a W Storm, nor been on one but I am surprised that you can't trim the sails while helming. My boat is of a similar size but I have no trouble adjusting the mainsheet and the jib sheets can be adjusted while the boat sails herself for a few seconds.

The important thing when sailing in anything of a chop is keep the boat moving. The jib will give enough drive to do this even if the main has been eased for a gust, but if the boat is allowed to slow down you will lose control and the heeling will get worse. After tacking, it will usually be easier to bear off a little to gain speed while the jib or genoa is being trimmed since you are not racing. There may still be occasions when a wave knocks you off course and the same applies; ease off the main a little and build up speed before trying to get onto your best close-wind course.
 
Happily, my father is easily pleased as crew. In his eyes:

Boat mostly proceeding forwards = sailing really well!
Completed a trip without going aground, hitting anything, breaking anything expensive or getting the spreaders in the water = highly proficient skipper!
 
johnalison said:
I've not sailed a W Storm, nor been on one but I am surprised that you can't trim the sails while helming.
Click to expand...

The main sheet is at the helm so that can be adjusted whilst helming. In hindsight, it would have been better to dump the sheet than to luff up, as you suggest. The loss of way resulted in exactly what you describe.

The winches are not self tailing so sheeting in the genoa isn't easy whilst helming, and the boat didn't really want to sail itself in those conditions.

Previous boat was a long keeler and I'm still getting used to the amount of steering input needed on this one.
 
To me the important thing is that you are thinking about whether you could have done better. Its the self questioning , not being too proud to ask for advice that really counts.
 
I find that my genoa doesnt set well at all going upwind when partially rolled, even with only three rolls, so I try to leave it fully out and reef the main first. Losing sail shape really affects windward performance
 
Chae_73 do not beat yourself up too much, you all need some confidence building. Every member of a crew should be able to basically steer and the more they do it, the better they become. Beating into a chop is not that nice for anyone, do it too slowly and you get nowhere fast.

I suspect that your sail set was a big cause of your problems. You probably needed more halyard tension to flatten the sails, possibly alter the genoa slider and the outhaul on the mainsail. Using genoa tell tails and mainsail leech tell tails are the simplest way to improve sail set.

When the windspeed is 18-20 knots I would advise a reef was necessary in the main and 3 to 4 rolls on the genoa. It is easier to reef early than later, but even easier to unreef.

The auto pilot will work, but on the wind is the worst position for reliability unless is is trimmed by a wind vane.

When I bought Concerto I had been without going sailing for 21 years. I felt a little rusty, but my confidence grew rapidly. The only difference was I did it all singlehanded. In the 1970's and 1980's I did a lot of offshore racing and later a lot of cruising. All the usual things to to with boats like sail set, navigation etc., soon came back - a bit like riding a bike. I remember the first few sails and getting to know how to do things quickly like tacking and reefing. The first big trip was from Chatham to Burnham and back. The trip up was easy, but the return was "fun". A beat with 30 to 35 knots over the deck and the autopilot stopped working. Using some rope and later some bungy cord, I managed to leave the helm for short periods. This was part of the learning curve of getting to know the boat. It would have been so much easier with a crew or two.

If I was closer I would have suggested going for a sail together, but maybe another forum member could do this with you.
 
You might try swapping the genoa for a smaller, working jib sized, headsail. I did this for occasions while sailing in the harbour by myself. I find that the smaller headsail has now become the 'normal' headsail. Easier to winch in, you can see around much better, the boat is easier to manage - and it goes nearly as fast!
 
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