steveeasy
Well-Known Member
Well that's covered that then. think were back where we started, or was it. very little traffic on the roads so it seams few people are going anywhere. The Law works wonders!!.
Steveeasy
Steveeasy
Access to Marinas during Covid 19 restrictions
- Thread starter Kinsale373
- Start date
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
That's the thing, if they close they only need a skelton (sic) crew, and they can furlough the rest.
Whereas if people want access it involves more people being there.
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ip485
Well-Known Member
Not where I am, but lets not let the facts get in the way. To be fair the office staff are a few fewer, but they were there to do "office things" and its now on line. Maybe it varies.
PaulRainbow - sorry, just to be light hearted for a moment - I think you will find you shouldnt be going anywhere.
For clarrity, as I said previously, I think people should stay at home and stay locally. I think if they have very good reason to do something else and that doesnt involve putting themselves at risk, or anyone else, personally I also think that is fine. I know many will disagree, but that is my opinion. I dont need to go anywhere, other than work (which I have to do as a key worker) so when I am not working, I stay at home. I have been to the boat once at the start of this. Unfortunately there was a small disaster at the marina, and unfortuantely I doubt the marina crew had being doing the job they say they were, but the boat is insured, and in any event I can deal with that in due course.
If I lived a short distance from the boat - I would go if the marina permitted it and if it wasnt busy.
I have seen my local promenade - and I will not be going there - it is with a short walk. I will be going somewhere close by in the car. If it were me the local promenade should have a health warning - it would be unsafe if there were more people infected. There arent, so I am very grateful for that as otherwise it would not be achieving the desired effect.
Back to which I am listening to the Government briefing - talking about critcism and this being welcome - because it challenges policy. Refreshing. The breath earlier was to say that the Government also needs to be honest with the population. That it has not been, and that I regret. The policy of honesty is sound, it is a shame it hasnt been performed on.
bdh198
Well-Known Member
That post makes some useful and important observations. Legally the issue is very straight forward; if you leave your home you need show you have a “reasonable excuse”. Whether a court considers a visit to the local marina a “reasonable excuse“ will depend on the circumstances, and is impossible to say on a forum like this, without knowing all the facts, whether it could be considered “reasonable” in a particular case. However, I suspect one factor a court will pay particular attention to in deciding if the excuse of visiting your boat in a marina was reasonable will be the level of risk you create of spreading the virus and coming into contact with others. A large busy marina in the Solent may present a very different situation to a small quiet marina somewhere else.
There is, however, a totally separate moral issue about whether we should all be applying the spirit of the law and following the government guidance to ensure there is a clear message to avoid the risk of spreading the virus. It maybe possible to argue that a visit to the marina is a “reasonable excuse“ in law, but if this is seen to confuse the message then does that not risk undermining the law and carry the danger of spreading the virus?
cherod
N/A
lets us differenciate between excuse and reason ,
Lightwave395
Well-Known Member
Gradually tiring of this thread, I doubt the two sides will ever find common ground, for me it's that for every one sensible person they'll be an "it shouldn't apply to me" who isn't...:
"I saw a sailboat and a Mobo out in the Solent today and there are people in my local boatyard so I don't see why I shouldn't either go out on or work on my boat"
therefore:
"It's not fair that they can go out on the water or work on their boats just because they live nearby"
therefore:
"I'm not standing for that, why should it be only people who live near their boats, I'm going to drive the 30 miles to my boat so I can go out or do some stuff too"
And perhaps:
"Oh bugger, some idiot has just driven into me on the M27 on my way to the boat, they're hurt, it needs an ambulance, police and a recovery truck"
Or maybe the socially distanced guy working on the boat next door has just fallen off his ladder etc etc ,someone needs to call an ambulance
Doesn't affect me, I couldn't get to my boat if tried, my marina is locked down except for one member of staff doing daily security patrols.
I sympathise with those who have boats on moorings and are worried about them, but not with those who's boats are in a yard, in the grand scheme of things it's only a boat
"I saw a sailboat and a Mobo out in the Solent today and there are people in my local boatyard so I don't see why I shouldn't either go out on or work on my boat"
therefore:
"It's not fair that they can go out on the water or work on their boats just because they live nearby"
therefore:
"I'm not standing for that, why should it be only people who live near their boats, I'm going to drive the 30 miles to my boat so I can go out or do some stuff too"
And perhaps:
"Oh bugger, some idiot has just driven into me on the M27 on my way to the boat, they're hurt, it needs an ambulance, police and a recovery truck"
Or maybe the socially distanced guy working on the boat next door has just fallen off his ladder etc etc ,someone needs to call an ambulance
Doesn't affect me, I couldn't get to my boat if tried, my marina is locked down except for one member of staff doing daily security patrols.
I sympathise with those who have boats on moorings and are worried about them, but not with those who's boats are in a yard, in the grand scheme of things it's only a boat
ip485
Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you, what a considered post.
I totally agree about the moral aspect.
Morals are difficult because they are so influenced by public opinion. For example, I fly (privately) and am not at the moment. I think it gives the wrong message. Moreover, I certainly dont need to. A good friend flew his helicopter form his private site to another private site (both his and his family). He was heavily crticised for doing so. Why was he criticised? It is difficult to see he was doing anything immoral.
Going to the boat is more difficult. Such is the sentiment, it may send the wrong message, even though I believe it to be legal. If my boat was on an exposed mooring, I suspect I would take a different view. Certainly, I accept a visit in almost every circumstance where the boat is in a marina is not necessary. Where it is on an exposed mooring, that is more difficult to assess. Of course, as we have seen here, when people make moral judgements very few consider the facts - as with the heli pilot, the motivation is usually something very different.
ip485
Well-Known Member
Which I would argue is not supported by the facts.
Do you know where the highest rate of accidents occur? Whatever you do dont stay in your home if you want to keep the number of people going to A and E down in normal circumstances.
The heli pilot - I can imagine someone will say - well he might crash. Do we understand the statistical chance of that happening - but of course they will say dreadfully dangerous machines, waiting for an accident to happen.
Can you only imagine the DIY'ers who dont normally at the moment as but one example doing all those things they would normally do at home. I know there are plenty going to A and E.
Again, I would argue we must consider the evidence and not allow our emotions to distract.
FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
A well written article that can use words better than I and may help people understand , but there has been some excellent posts explaining , it is for a court to decide what is reasonable, and many factors may come into play
1, scenario, could be that if you can prove you have not had the virus i.e self isolated for 14 day, drive to yard were your boat is by itself and come into contact with no one and drive back the Judge under the new legalisation is really only looking at beyond reasonable doubt could you have infected someone , have you infected someone and was the journey reasonable and under guidelines, 2. if you can show that you needed to go and cover up something , emergency repair , do essential work that might create a deprecation or loss of vessel , I would expect the Judge to consider that reasonable and on point one you are not guilty and point 2 is the Judges decision .
This argument is around police powers and how a low ranking Police constable know has the power to define reasonable and that is not his.her Job
Police are totally confused by the UK’s coronavirus lockdown laws
1, scenario, could be that if you can prove you have not had the virus i.e self isolated for 14 day, drive to yard were your boat is by itself and come into contact with no one and drive back the Judge under the new legalisation is really only looking at beyond reasonable doubt could you have infected someone , have you infected someone and was the journey reasonable and under guidelines, 2. if you can show that you needed to go and cover up something , emergency repair , do essential work that might create a deprecation or loss of vessel , I would expect the Judge to consider that reasonable and on point one you are not guilty and point 2 is the Judges decision .
This argument is around police powers and how a low ranking Police constable know has the power to define reasonable and that is not his.her Job
Police are totally confused by the UK’s coronavirus lockdown laws
Lightwave395
Well-Known Member
cherod
N/A
seems that a disproportionate amount of forum users or yachty types have a propensity to car accidents and falling off ladders,, always someone elses fault of course .
ip485
Well-Known Member
I have now given this matter some more consideration.
i understand that many marinas have closed in order to limit numbers of people attending and rely on their having taken the decision that they are the same as "caravan parks".
I find few similarites with caravan parks. Some boats require reasonably regular maintenance and checks to ensure that all is well. This is not happening. In my own case despite reassurances from the marina, the boat has suffered considerable damage. This might have occurred anyway, but the relatviely simple work to make it safe and secure was inadequately performed.
The other argument is that the marina would be inundated with to many berth holders. This is not the case, Berth holders could be allocated a slot to check (and do no more) their vessels and systems and go away again. Dountless many would be happy not to come and of course that would be a matter for them. A one hour slot would be more than adequate, extendable at the discretion of the marina if needs must.
Finally the question arises over people using the facilities. If the marina is closed anyway these could be locked closed so they cannot be used.
This will come to an end - at some point. It may be weeks, it might be longer. However there will be pieces to pick up, impact on the economy and on businesses, and it goes without saying tragic loss of life. Life goes on, maybe not now but it will, and the sooner we addess these matters the better, becasue inevitably we will have to do so.
I am not going to get into how people get to the marina - we have done that to death - some people live very close, so they arent travelling far.
This is the reality and if marinas are interpreting the law as they think appropriate then at the very least they should be in consultation with the Governement since the Governemnt has not seen fit to mention marinas - or airports for that matter - and I refer to all the owners of GA aircraft who face similar concerns (albeit possibly less severe in the short term), and the majority of who have not been locked out of the airports at which they are based.
I have written to the RYA.
i understand that many marinas have closed in order to limit numbers of people attending and rely on their having taken the decision that they are the same as "caravan parks".
I find few similarites with caravan parks. Some boats require reasonably regular maintenance and checks to ensure that all is well. This is not happening. In my own case despite reassurances from the marina, the boat has suffered considerable damage. This might have occurred anyway, but the relatviely simple work to make it safe and secure was inadequately performed.
The other argument is that the marina would be inundated with to many berth holders. This is not the case, Berth holders could be allocated a slot to check (and do no more) their vessels and systems and go away again. Dountless many would be happy not to come and of course that would be a matter for them. A one hour slot would be more than adequate, extendable at the discretion of the marina if needs must.
Finally the question arises over people using the facilities. If the marina is closed anyway these could be locked closed so they cannot be used.
This will come to an end - at some point. It may be weeks, it might be longer. However there will be pieces to pick up, impact on the economy and on businesses, and it goes without saying tragic loss of life. Life goes on, maybe not now but it will, and the sooner we addess these matters the better, becasue inevitably we will have to do so.
I am not going to get into how people get to the marina - we have done that to death - some people live very close, so they arent travelling far.
This is the reality and if marinas are interpreting the law as they think appropriate then at the very least they should be in consultation with the Governement since the Governemnt has not seen fit to mention marinas - or airports for that matter - and I refer to all the owners of GA aircraft who face similar concerns (albeit possibly less severe in the short term), and the majority of who have not been locked out of the airports at which they are based.
I have written to the RYA.
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
All this time I’ve been thinking you haven’t really got this and the you come out with a work of genius like this.
One hour slots to check on your boat.
This has got legs.
What about one hour slots for the pub? That’d do me.
Or if we all sat on every ninth seat we could all have 10 minutes at the footie.
Oh yes, even the bookies would be back in play.
You were right about a boating forum being full of intelligent people.
All that would take to work would be to ensure that no one already had the virus and left it on the doors/gates/locks/handrails/keypads/hosepipes or the pulpits of those boats who’s owners always park them sticking out across the pontoon.
I do hope you have put all that in the letter.
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One hour slots to check on your boat.
This has got legs.
What about one hour slots for the pub? That’d do me.
Or if we all sat on every ninth seat we could all have 10 minutes at the footie.
Oh yes, even the bookies would be back in play.
You were right about a boating forum being full of intelligent people.
All that would take to work would be to ensure that no one already had the virus and left it on the doors/gates/locks/handrails/keypads/hosepipes or the pulpits of those boats who’s owners always park them sticking out across the pontoon.
I do hope you have put all that in the letter.
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Ian_Rob
Well-Known Member
This is one of the worst threads i have ever read on the whole of YBW.
Nearly 700 people died in the last 24 hours !
My wife works in the food industry, still working in the factory with 50 other people, so you lot can eat.
My sister works in the pet food industry, still working so you can feed your pets.
My eldest daughter works in the care system, still working, despite being in one of the high risk groups.
Countless others in the NHS, food industry etc etc are still working and literally risking their lives for others.
Some of the drivel posted in this, and other threads, by people whining because they can't go sailing, can't go for a drive, don't want to comply with the regulations, etc are a total disgrace.
Shame on you !
ip485
Well-Known Member
Do you own a boat?
No hosepipes these days.
We all go through gates when we go for our walkies in the country.
No one ever gets on my boat, or anyone elses.
Never seen anyone touch the pulpits etc.
I dont believe you are like any of the boat owners I know.
- and in any event, I suspect most of us can read. Simple rules that you agree to - the toilets are locked, dont go to them, disinfect your hands if you open a gate, dont touch other people's boats. I accept some places may have keypads, many do not. We dont.
Within the next four weeks I predict the lock down will be lifted to a degree. All these problems will have to be considered then. Little will have changed except (very importsntly) the NHS will be better able to cope, so I would rather start to address these problems now. Of course we could address them then, and yet again be unprepared - funny that, if it wasnt so serious.
We will ALL have to deal with these issues in the coming months. Do you really think the virus will suddenly disappear. I hope so - but it is unlikely. If we dont get back to some sembelance of reality the coutnry will collapse - there will be no supply chains, no NHS, no food, it is simple - we know that. The sooner we start addessing these issues and working out how to return to some semblance of normality the better LEARNING the new precautions we must take.
Personally I would prefer to get my head out the sand we are in, and face up to reality. I cant put in more bluntly than that.
If this is the worst thread so be it, but think about why it is so important we discuss the future and all of our safety. Some seem to think this is being selfish. Quite the opposite - it is about reality.
Personally the one thing I believe is the Governemnt know this (there have been enough hints) so watch and see what happens over the coming weeks. (I do have an inside track as well, but anyway we must all believe what ever it is we believe, and I am just saying).
Very happy to see reasons why it would not work but to trivialise with "meet ups in the pub" is as disappointing as the sarcasm. even better how it could be made to work. Perhaps it couldnt - but please something constructive. I dont even mean now, this week, I mean over the coming weeks and months?
and also please do tell us how the future pans out? Perhaps you see the virus disappearing? Perhaps you see a vaccine in the next six months. Perhaps you see the risk of infection dramatically changing. I would genuinely be interested in what you think will change so we can have a constructive discussion rather than sniping.
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Ian_Rob
Well-Known Member
How about making all future posts to this thread dependent upon the contributors using actual names rather than pseudonyms?
Ian Robinson
Ian Robinson
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shaunksb
Well-Known Member
Ok, you got me on the hosepipe, I know we all have to bring our own.
But what’s that thingie you attach it too, THE TAP!!
Are you seriously suggesting you bring your own tap with you too?
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But what’s that thingie you attach it too, THE TAP!!
Are you seriously suggesting you bring your own tap with you too?
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rszemeti
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, the harbour master wrote to me a few weeks ago to tell me that the harbour was closed, and the moorings were not to be used ... which was not unexpected, but obviously meant that our boat would not be going back in the water on the 1st of april as planned.
I was however a little surprised to receive a note asking that the mooring fees still be paid in advance, along with the years harbour dues ... I'm afraid they will have to whistle for that!
I was however a little surprised to receive a note asking that the mooring fees still be paid in advance, along with the years harbour dues ... I'm afraid they will have to whistle for that!
RJJ
Well-Known Member
Quite agree. Happy also to append my name to the letter, if you'd care to share it.
There is no law, just guidance. The boating community can sensibly interpret the guidance, proportionally and with common sense. We should be able to protect our valuable and treasured assets, if necessary in a coordinated manner as you indicate. This would cause vastly less risk to infection received or passed on than a single trip to a supermarket or stroll to a crowded city park.
Momac
Well-Known Member
I guess if everyone refused to pay moorings or other fees during the lockdown period then some marinas would go out of business. Would that be a good outcome?