Abandon my liferaft?

[PhilS]

My liferaft is old and in the way (on the deck too close to the main sheet). I sail on the east coast in and out of the rivers on a 10 year old Bavaria 34, although I might venture to France soon. I need to replace my liferaft and find somewhere better to keep it of get rid of it. Does anyone have any figures on how often liferafts get used? Is there one case a year when it has been useful close to the UK coast or a 100? At the moment I feel the liferaft is a liability as I am more likely to fall overboard dealing with the main-sheet wrapping round it than I am being saved by it.

 

[LadyInBed]

Sailed for 27 years inc X channel without one and never needed it
Bought a s/h one at Christmas because I intend to head down to Spain and Portugal but doubt that it will ever get used.
I think I am right in saying that in most cases where yacht crews took to the Life Raft the boat was found afloat!
No one can say "get rid of it", it's whatever makes you feel secure.

 

[Ludd]

My liferaft is old and in the way (on the deck too close to the main sheet). I sail on the east coast in and out of the rivers on a 10 year old Bavaria 34, although I might venture to France soon. I need to replace my liferaft and find somewhere better to keep it of get rid of it. Does anyone have any figures on how often liferafts get used? Is there one case a year when it has been useful close to the UK coast or a 100? At the moment I feel the liferaft is a liability as I am more likely to fall overboard dealing with the main-sheet wrapping round it than I am being saved by it.

Can you mount it on the pushpit?

 

[Solent sailer]

its a difficult choice on the face of it everyone should carry a life raft but they are big (on a small boat) and need expensive maintenance if they are to be any use.
After much consideration we don't carry one, we sail around the south coast, solent and across to france. All fairly busy shipping areas and felt that should the worst happen providing we had time to get a DSC mayday out and we were all waring life jackets our chances were pretty good.
I think if I were going further afield I would consider hiring for the duration of the trip, that way I could have a "better" life raft than I would be prepared to buy and maintain. Your choice will be influenced by your crew, having small children or older people who you may feel responsible for is an important consideration.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

There is absolutely no factual or statistical reason for carrying a liferaft in the waters you describe. There have been no last resort deployments of a liferaft in those waters. That is fact.

The other reality is that they can hugely increase our sense of security, that's why we carry one, even though I know I will never need it. We sail with our children and something in me needs to know I've "done the right thing". The one use I can envisage for it is an MOB. We have fearsome topsides and a wineglass hull so getting someone up would be a nightmare in a big sea. In any kind of life threatening MOB we would chuck the liferaft in and let the casualty climb in then either work out a retrieval or if they were debilitated or the weather was dangerous - call for help. BTW, that's the RNLI advice.

So no you definately don't need one. But I understand completely if you want one, and pushpit mounted they are easy to deploy.

 

[Blueboatman]

Ooh, that is very good.+1.

Perhaps the OP might consider one that is not in a GRP shell in the longer term, they then can stow between the forward berths or under the helmseat or just in the cockpit floor area when on passage, just as we lug a wee rubber dinghy around...

I have met people who are considering removing their just-expired flares and just out-of-service liferafafts this year( and of course topped off tanks of red diesel, sigh) before visiting French waters, because of rumoured of fears/uncertanties re possible fines.
Ironic safety eh?

 

[PhilS]

Thanks or your comments!
I will have another look at the pushpit. It wasn't obvious it would fit.

 

[snooks]

There have been no last resort deployments of a liferaft in those waters. That is fact.

These facts?

Wahkuna lost in the (middle) English channel sailing from France to the UK, ship hit them, took to their liferaft, yacht sunk.

Ouzo sunk off the IOW, Tulia sunk on the way front the east coast to Holland, the crew of both yachts were sadly found dead.

Would the crews of Ouzo and Tulia still be here if they had a liferaft on board?

I don't know.....but the MAIB said a liferaft would have been the best means of improving survivability of the Ouzo crew.

If it's on a hydrostatic release it would also give any emergency services a bigger target to look for! should the worst happen.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I don't know.....but the MAIB said a liferaft would have been the best means of improving survivability of the Ouzo crew.

The MAIB may have said that but in the case of the Ouzo a dinghy would have done the job fine. As would a handheld VHF. As would a mobile phone in a freezer bag. [1] As would an EPIRB. As would almost any flavour of SART.

They all lived for 12 hours IIRC without a dinghy or liferaft so what they were missing was a way to summon help, not a way to stay warm and dry(ish).

...but I agree with Lazy Kipper that Liferafts are rarely needed and I agree with you that from time to time they *have* been used in the waters described by the OP.

[1] I went out to the spot shortly after and there's signal there for my provider.

 

[snooks]

The MAIB may have said that but in the case of the Ouzo a dinghy would have done the job fine. As would a handheld VHF. As would a mobile phone in a freezer bag. [1] As would an EPIRB. As would almost any flavour of SART.

Agreed, but this thread was about liferafts and they were specifically mentioned in the report.

From the MAIB Ouzo report:

"2.9.6 Liferaft
The MAIB believe a liferaft would have provided the best means of improving survivability. Ouzo was not fitted with a liferaft because, when the owner was fitting the boat out, he considered the yacht physically too small. However, a four-person liferaft is now a relatively compact unit typically measuring 75x50x30cm and weighing about 40kg. In this instance, it appears the crew had little time to deploy a raft, so an invaluable addition would have been a hydrostatic release mechanism enabling the raft to float free once the yacht had sunk.

In this case, a liferaft and hydrostatic release would almost certainly have saved the lives of the three crewmen."

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Agreed,

Good!

 

[sarabande]

There is absolutely no factual or statistical reason for carrying a liferaft in the waters you describe. There have been no last resort deployments of a liferaft in those waters. That is fact.

.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29761523_ITM

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/analysis_of_fishing_vessel_accident_data.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14452059

http://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/2521

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fle...ing-Units/Ships/Mersey/Mersey Beat Jan 12.pdf




for starters....

 

[snooks]

for starters....

I like a good "forum fact"

Almost as reliable as a Wikifact

To be fair though, the last two are the same, and the two in Scotland, are not technically "those waters" espesh if you're bobbing about in an open Viking boat

 

[wazza]

We've taken ours off the coach roof where it was placed and installed solar panels instead..!
It's old & probably cost an arm & a leg to 'update'..
May well put it back on the boat if we were to cross the Atlantic or such like, but not sure if we could rely on it as it hasn't been tested, so in an emergency, may well not be the best time to 'check' it..

 

[Tranona]

Agreed, but this thread was about liferafts and they were specifically mentioned in the report.

From the MAIB Ouzo report:

"2.9.6 Liferaft
The MAIB believe a liferaft would have provided the best means of improving survivability. Ouzo was not fitted with a liferaft because, when the owner was fitting the boat out, he considered the yacht physically too small. However, a four-person liferaft is now a relatively compact unit typically measuring 75x50x30cm and weighing about 40kg. In this instance, it appears the crew had little time to deploy a raft, so an invaluable addition would have been a hydrostatic release mechanism enabling the raft to float free once the yacht had sunk.

In this case, a liferaft and hydrostatic release would almost certainly have saved the lives of the three crewmen."

This is not much more than speculation - the boat was completely destroyed. There are big "ifs" - If the raft had inflated, If the crew had been able to board, If they had been able to atract attention. The one thing that was different about this collision is that the crew were alive for some time after the collision, whereas in other cases of boats disappearing after collisions, the crew seem to have been killed by the impact.

The basic point made by Lazy Kipper is sound. You can count the number of times a liferaft has been used, or could have been used in UK and Irish coastal waters by a yacht on your fingers and toes in the last 15 years - less than 20. The MAIB reports cover most of the incidents in great detail. If you read them all there is a lot to be learned.

There are three major reasons for foundering - collision, extreme weather, and structural failure (the last usually on racing yachts). None of the incidents involve "family sailing" and almost all involve experienced or professional crews. Not all deployments are trouble free, and in most cases where a liferaft was not deployed it would not have made any difference to the outcome. The great value in reading the reports is in helping understand how to avoid getting into situations where a yacht is likely to founder. Contrary to popular belief it does not involve fire at sea or holing - both of which are rare and can usually be dealt with. The image of the family stepping off a sinking yacht into a liferaft is just that, an image which is not what happens in reality.

Rationally there is no reason why a coastal and cross channel sailor should ever need a liferaft, but of course there are many reasons why people think them necessary, helped by the relatively low cost. When you read the real experiences you realise how ill prepared most people would be to actually use one effectively.

If you are serious about using a liferaft it is useful to take the survival course. If nothing else it will convince you that you should do everything you can to avoid getting into a situation where you might need one!

In the meantime we will continue to moan about the cost of them (particularly when the service bill comes in) and the difficulty of mounting and deploying them on our small boats.

 

[onesea]

Could this question be raised another way?

How many people in "those waters" have been found saved BECAUSE of a life-raft?

Other incidents can only be considered what if's?

Having considered a liferaft, but decided against for similar reasons as OP.

I do like the point about being able to call for help...

I have a phone that is waterproof, must store it near cockpit not in the chart table and charge the handed VHF's and keep in dry bags.

 

[Tranona]

I like a good "forum fact"

Almost as reliable as a Wikifact

To be fair though, the last two are the same, and the two in Scotland, are not technically "those waters" espesh if you're bobbing about in an open Viking boat

And none of them involve anything remotely like the OPs situation.

You can find plenty of examples of liferafts being used or might have been used, particularly small fishing boats, but very few that involve leisure yachts. Nearly all small fishing boats founderings are in extreme weather or capsizing following fouled gear.

 

[Seajet]

I've always thought that for coastal and cross Channel sailing there's a good case - or indeed market - for inflation bottles on the 'normal' inflatable tender.

Some dinghies used to offer this, but they were expensive ones even without this kit, such as the Tinker Tramp.

I suspect modern dinghy materials might not be suitable for freezing bottled air, though have wondered, if all else fails and the yacht is indeed going under, if a dinghy could be inflated ( even if only partly ) with fire extinguishers ???

 

[lw395]

I've always thought that for coastal and cross Channel sailing there's a good case - or indeed market - for inflation bottles on the 'normal' inflatable tender.

...?

We used to have these on the RYA's Sonatas' dinghies. There was always a worry of damaging the bottles or fittings.
Unless you have a dedicated cockpit locker and perhaps a special bag, it can take far too long to get the dinghy on deck for it to be much of a substitute for a LR in the event of a direct hit from a ship.
I guess it comes down to your assessment and perception of the risk. I have crossed the channel plenty of times without a LR, but if I owned a yacht again, I'd probably have one, unless it was a small inshore yacht. But it does not make you indestructible, more like ticking the boxes to say you've taken all reasonable measures. The Ouzo crew members would still very likely have died with a liferaft on board.

 

[xyachtdave]

I was given an old Avon life raft, it came in a container, but also had a valise.

Why not store below deck/locker somewhere and lose the container? You'll never use it anyway and if things get bad I'm sure you'll have no problem lobbing the stuff you stored on top of it over the side.

Yes, you could get run down by a ship in the dark and not get to it in time, but as you say more likely to hurt yourself gybing!