A yacht can be too careful!

[dom]

Yesterday I was crossing the eastbound shipping channel returning fom St Vaast.

I saw a contact on the radar indicating possible collision at 3 miles. I could see that it was a serious tanker. I was stand on vessel but ...! At 2 miles ship had altered couse by 15 or so degrees and was now heading for us. Soon after that safely behind us.

I called the ship to thank them and make sure I was interpreting their actions correctly. Watch officer laughingly told me rules are rules! Ship passed safely 1 mile behind us.

What bothers me is:

1. The normal action of slowing down or turn to port to dip the ship would have been very dangerous. A turn to stbd to wait for him to pass would have been just as dangerous.

2. These monsters are more manouverable than I thought!

3. Yachtsmen usually wait until collsion is 5 to 10 minutes away ie ship 1 to 2 miles away. At 2 miles the ship may well have committed itself to a new course.

It seems to me that it is mixture between the total professionalism illustrated above and some ships who just feel yachts should avoid them that is dangerous.

Also yachts must remember that at 4 miles the ship is making a call. Yachts at half that or less.

 

[whipper_snapper]

The principal is very clear. If as stand-on vessel you elect to give way either out of 'politeness' or concern, then you must allow for the possibility that the other vessel is about to take action. That will usually mean he is altering to pass astern of you.

The practice, of course, is less clear. Small speed or course adjustments to 'dip his stern' would invariably be wrong. I would probably have made a 90 degree course change.

 

[wizard]

It was a relief to know that:-

1. you actually showed up on his radar
2. that someone on watch was paying close attention
3. they took the necessary action

unlike a recent tradegy!!

 

[rwoofer]

This completely fits in with my response to another thread.

My personal experience is that we often put ourselves in more danger by not being consistent and standing on. It's my experence as well that many ships plan to avoid you even when they are the stand on vessel. This is why I tend to wait first and be absolutely sure there is a collision course before doing anything.

 

[johnalison]

I once met a yachtsman who I believe was ex-naval who told me he always gives way and turns to the ship's stern. I've also heard ships giving yachts a right telling-off for doing the same thing. One reason why I will be fitting AIS as soon as I can.

 

[webcraft]

I see this as a question primarliy of distance from the ship.

If you are the stand-on vessel but want to make a course alteration then of course it is your right to do so as long as a potential risk of collision does not currently exist. Most skippers who follow the 'keep away from big ships' school of thought will make a large, clear alteration long before a potential collision situation actually exists, preferring to add a quarter of an hour on to their journey rather than get anywhere near the monster.

I would say this means altering clearly and dramatically when the ship is at least two miles away. You are not then messing with the colregs, merely changing course as a matter of choice when there is no collision danger and plenty of time for the other party to note and react if necessary. If you make a course alteration through 90 degrees then there is no way you are causing a danger even if the other vessel has begun to alter.

The danger is if you allow the potential collision situation to develop and then decide to alter course even though you are now the stand-on vessel in a close quarters situation. Once the vessel is inside two miles it becomes much more important to stand on if you are the stand-on vessel.

Finally there is the extreme close quarters situation, where even though you are the stand-on vessel you have to make a move to avoid disaster. What distance is this? At what distance does a collision become inevitable?

My thinking is that in the worst case scenario - i.e. you are about to be t-boned by a large ship travelling at speed - then you need to be able to turn 90 degrees and then cover a distance equivalent to twice the beam of the approaching vessel.

Say 3 minutes to cover a quarter of a mile at five knots.

Assuming the ship is travelling at 10 knots then it will cover a mile in 6 minutes. You need to react at a minimum distance of half a mile - and if the ship is doing 20 knots, at a mile. Of course, usually the potential collider will be travelling at an oblique angle, so this is a worst case scenario - but it does show that if you can see a real danger of collision at under a mile and suspect that you have not been seen then you do not have long to get out of the way.

The corollary of this of course is that if the ship is going to give way it should make a clear alteration of course in plenty of time . . . the panicking skipper of the small yacht does not know that on the ship the radar plot is being consulted and an alteration of 5 degrees being made to bring the CPA just within limits.

It is not easy - but if ships made more obvious course alterations sooner then there would be fewer panicky course alterations made unnecessarily by yachts.

I must admit I often heave a sigh of relief when I am the give-way vessel - it makes life much simpler.

On another matter, what about when sailing at night? Do we assume they can see our weedy tricolour? I always obey the rules for powered vessels at night even when sailing because on radar they can't tell if my engine is running or not. Am I right?

- Nick

 

[dom]

I totally agree with most of what you are saying. However you say to react

"when the ship is at least two miles away"

The ship yesterday was visibly reacting by that point. He must have taken the decision at three miles. Therefore any reaction by the yacht at that point other than to stand on would have been wrong. The other surprising thing for me was the magnitude of his course alteration and the relative speed he could make it.

 

[Poignard]

Were you fairly near Cap Barfleur when this happened? Reason I ask is that a tanker altered course and passed astern of me near there, for which I was duly grateful, but didn't alter back onto her original course. Then it dawned on me that she was probably heading for Le Havre or the oil transhipment zone near there!

 

[TradewindSailor]

Sailing across the English Channel can be quite a eye-opening experience.

As the stand-on vessel ...... if I had any doubt over the safety of passing the other ship ....... I would call up on Ch 16 with securite message, identifying my vessel, my position and course and ask for any ships unable to keep clear to contact me.

In the usually crouded Channel, taking avoiding action for one ship may leave you in the path of another that you have yet to identify.

ANY ship/yacht must take avoiding action if necessary... whether they consider themselves to be the stand-on vessel or not.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say this means altering clearly and dramatically when the ship is at least two miles away. You are not then messing with the colregs, merely changing course as a matter of choice when there is no collision danger and plenty of time for the other party to note and react if necessary.

[/ QUOTE ] I think that you will find that many ships are watching you and assessing their risk of collision (and adjusting their course) at FAR BIGGER distances that that.

May I humbly suggest that your thinking is reversed? It's when they are two miles away or less that I am thinking about whether they really are taking avoiding action and I am starting to plan my next move - not necessarily standing on for very much longer.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
As the stand-on vessel ...... if I had any doubt over the safety of passing the other ship ....... I would call up on Ch 16 with securite message, identifying my vessel, my position and course and ask for any ships unable to keep clear to contact me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am beginning to think the VHF radio should be banned or taxed to prevent its misuse, because if you do what you suggest:

1. You might have quite a few ships who are able to hear you. Twenty, thirty maybe more some days?

2. I cannot imagine any ship admitting on open channel that he is 'unable to avoid you'. Much of the radio traffic, ships positions etc is recorded and NO-ONE is going to admit they can't comply with the rules.

3. Many of the watchkeepers don't speak English as a first language and I don't belive that they are going to always plot where you are and assess their position relative to you. They look at the radar and out of the bridge window and try to stay awake - sometimes unsuccessfully.

I think I am tirning into a grumpy old man on IRPCS and yachts behaviour - and I love sailing so something is going wrong somewhere!!

 

[whipper_snapper]

[ QUOTE ]
.... if I had any doubt over the safety of passing the other ship ....... I would call up on Ch 16 with securite message, identifying my vessel, my position and course and ask for any ships unable to keep clear to contact me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not do that.

There are repeated warnings that VHF must not be used as a collision avoidance tool. There are several cases where it has caused collisions. The chances of it helping a situation are remote, the potential for confusion is great.

There are special cases when it is appropriate, but in general it is far safer to just 'apply the rules'.

 

[webcraft]

I see your point John, it's just that our recent personal experience - usually with smaller ships of maybe less than 10,000 tons - has suggested that they tend to alter at around two miles and sometimes less.

Even if they ARE altering at three miles me changing course at that point is not going to inconvenience them very much as long as I make my couse alteration obvious and permanent until they are past.

It would be very interesting to have AIS just to see at what distance most ships do alter for yachts.

Might I suggest that someone among us takes it upon themselves to find a commercial shipping forum and join it in search of an up to date professional point of view?


Nick

 

[fisherman]

If it's any use to you, there seems to be a convention for ships to alter for us at exactly one mile range, and this is what we look for, and don't panic until.

 

[YAYoHamble]

The concept of needing to wait until vessels get close was also raised on another thread. Here and on that thread, people expressed opinions such as "wait until 2 miles apart" and similar.

My question is: how the heck do you judge distances? I've crossed the channel twice; once at night and once during the day. The night crossing (my first) scares me to think about even now. I stuck to the colregs pretty much but found it utterly impossible to tell from a couple of pinpricks of light whether we were 5 miles or 100m apart. I spent the whole middle of the channel in absolute terror.

Even during the day, I'd be hard pressed to guess distances. I suppose it comes with practice but I'm currently working on three categories; "just about visible - ignore for now", "been watching it for ages now - just keep worrying" and "gulp".

 

[landaftaf]

as a serving merchant mariner I would say it depends on the surrounding shipping picture and speed of the vessel.
however, if its a lone yot then I would alter (and expect my deck officers to alter) approx 2 - 3 miles away to give a cpa of at least 0.5 if not about a mile. one my alteration is obvious I may choose to reduce the cpa to about 0.5 miles if conditions are suitable.
it is quite likely - and I would expect to pick up a yot on radar about 5 miles away under normal conditions
yot lights are notoriously poor and sometimes cannot be seen at a couple of miles
I always stress to the OOW that an extra vigilent lookout is required where yots or small fishing boats can be expected ....... as boredom can set in after sighting nothing of interest for many watches
finally - if the shipping picture is busy it is quite normal to alter for a small vessel at about 2 miles or slightly less - altering for anything at a mile means a late sighting as this is generally thought to be too close for comfort for an alteration.

 

[dom]

Not really. At the time I was approx twenty miles north of Cherbourg. Almost at the end of the eastbound shipping lane.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's any use to you, there seems to be a convention for ships to alter for us at exactly one mile range, and this is what we look for, and don't panic until.

[/ QUOTE ]That's because from the bridge of a ship or from a yacht, I can never work out what a fishing boat is going to do next...! No complaints - its just par for the course for a fishing boat in my experience.

 

[johnalison]

Judging distances can be learned. Whether or not you can see the bow wave gives a good cut-off point at around three miles. Since having radar, my judgement has been much more accurate! In general, ships are further away than one would think at first glance and a ship at one mile looks as if it is about to run you down. If you haven't got radar, you can practice by checking your position against marks with GPS and observing ships passing nearby.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
The concept of needing to wait until vessels get close was also raised on another thread. Here and on that thread, people expressed opinions such as "wait until 2 miles apart" and similar.

My question is: how the heck do you judge distances? I've crossed the channel twice; once at night and once during the day. The night crossing (my first) scares me to think about even now. I stuck to the colregs pretty much but found it utterly impossible to tell from a couple of pinpricks of light whether we were 5 miles or 100m apart. I spent the whole middle of the channel in absolute terror.

Even during the day, I'd be hard pressed to guess distances. I suppose it comes with practice but I'm currently working on three categories; "just about visible - ignore for now", "been watching it for ages now - just keep worrying" and "gulp".

[/ QUOTE ]The easy answer is that it gets easier with experience, but that isn't very helpful!

Distances are hard to judge - especially at night so here are some tips.

If you haven't got radar, try plotting your position on the chart when you are close inshore and near shipping and measuring the distance to known objects/bouys and then compare that to shipping when it passes near that object/buoy. After you have done this with a few ships you should be able to get better with your distances. Bearings and bearing changes are much more important than distances and as I said, everyone finds distances hard to judge at night so don't panic about it. If the bearing is steady, no-one is going to find fault with you if you make a positive course alteration early and let the ship go past. Despite what I have said in other threads about standing on with caution, I have been know to reverse my course when I am not sure of a ship's intentions.

Keep a good look-out - ESPECIALLY behind you, under the genoa and in bad weather make your self look into the wind. Its painful to look to weather when its blowing old boots, and we can find ourselves avoiding the pain and not keeping such a good look-out in that direction.

Don't assume that ships have seen you even if they appear to be avoiding you - carry on monitoring them until thay are past and clear.

If you are vigilant and obey the IRPCS you will be safe will keep you and your crew safe.

Relax enough to enjoy the sailing - or at least remember that there are fresh croissants and coffee and wine on the other side...