A rational explanation for Noah's flood.

Where does all that leave the tales of saving 2 of every species, and a handful of related humans?

That is, to put it mildly, not supported by evidence. Which leaves the whole premise of punishment and rescue without much foundation. So for the religious types, what is left ? They seem to acknowledge that it was only a little local difficulty not a worldwide flood, and that obviously an ark was not the only means of sustaining terrestrial biology.

SO what is the religious significance of the tale ?
 
whipper_snapper said:
Where does all that leave the tales of saving 2 of every species, and a handful of related humans?

SO what is the religious significance of the tale ?
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It leaves it as an entertaining story.

The religious significance is that it makes Noah a role model of fidelity to his commandment from God to build the ark in the face of opposition, doubting Thomases and ridicule. His perseverance is intended to inspire the faith of others.
 
Having had the JWs on the doorstep a few times, I once tried to discuss the origens of their beliefs. Any talk stalled at the point that the OT was FACT. OK, I say it was related many generations on and written and translated several times. The NT was not recorded at the time but, again, written down and retranslated several times by people who might have had 'agendas'. So they replied it was FACT. Not much conversation after that, completely closed minds (and some ludicrous books)
I tend to view the books as nice stories to further the views of the organisations concerned. And to explain everything to (in the past) completely uneducated people, who needed some explaination to keep them under the thumb.

Why are we not allowed to see the dead sea scrolls?

A

As to the OPs 'Christian and a sailor' Being a Christian is a state of mind towards your fellow man. NOT a follow of some organised religion. Confucious had it right, a few years before.
 
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If you can explain everything then you don't need faith.

However it's comforting when a rational explanation underpins something I had great difficulty in accepting. This doesn't confirm anything of course but it's a workable theory.

This said and on further surfing on the net, I am far from being the only one linking the Black Sea surge with Noah's flood. For that sorry.
 
As to the OPs 'Christian and a sailor' Being a Christian is a state of mind towards your fellow man. NOT a follow of some organised religion. Confucious had it right, a few years before.===============================================================


Woolly thinking - a Christian is a follower of Christ obviously. Of course there are in our opinion both good and not-so-good Christians, with various attributes.

NB The Flood was not only a result of quote: 'rain on the earth 40 days & 40 nights',(not 150 as quoted previously) , but 'the fountains of the great deep were broken up' I'm sure we experieced the 40 days rain when we first moved to Stockport and also in winter in Londonderry
 
I just love how science is undermining religion bit by bit and how religions have to come up with ever dafter explanation in order to salvage their reputation.

Religion: there was a flood that covered the whole earth, everybody died
Science: there is not enough water on the planet earth to cover the whole planet
Religion: euh...actually it was just the Black Sea and the Med. Point is there was a flood and everybody died
Science: yes, but the Black Sea thing happened before the earth was created, in your version
Religion: euh..hang on...

Do not confuse a set of moral guidelines with actual history and fact, pls.
 
kingfisher said:
I just love how science is undermining religion bit by bit and how religions have to come up with ever dafter explanation in order to salvage their reputation.

Religion: there was a flood that covered the whole earth, everybody died
Science: there is not enough water on the planet earth to cover the whole planet
Religion: euh...actually it was just the Black Sea and the Med. Point is there was a flood and everybody died
Science: yes, but the Black Sea thing happened before the earth was created, in your version
Religion: euh..hang on...

Do not confuse a set of moral guidelines with actual history and fact, pls.
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Firstly I have to admit to being a professional theologian.

The only religion that science 'undermines' is that of the small minded and perhaps inadequate fundamentalism that is often found in Southern USA amongst other parts of the world. Such ignorance and small mindedness is just as worrying to those of us who try to take theology seriously as the 'professional atheists' who attack religious faith at every opportunity.

I always liken asking about 'truth' and some biblical stories to asking about the 'truth' behind things like Aesop's fables. Just because there wasn't ever a real hare and a real tortoise, doesn't mean that there isn't truth behind the story of the hare and the tortoise. The same applies to the biblical myths. The use of myth in this context doesn't imply that there isn't 'truth' contained in the story.

Faith is not s suspension of scientific sensibility - nor should it be a way of filling in the 'gaps' that science hasn't yet explained. The world is a far more amazing place than that - and the why's and wherefores are just as interesting to the theologian as the logic and theory and fitting of the latest hypothesis to the measured and observed facts is to the scientist. Faith is also far more than some sort of 'moral code'. religion is more than morality - there are plenty of atheists who are 'moral' people - but many people of faith would argue that such people miss a whole part of their humanity out in their lives.
 
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shmoo said:
Not 4000 years old but created in 4000BC (October 26, 4004 BC, 9:00 am to be precise) so 6000 and some years old. Pay attention, there will be a test.
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Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/

Sadly I can't lay claim to this nice piece of satire, it's from the wonderful site, 'The Onion'
 
alan_d said:
Who is stopping you? They are widely available online, both the originals and in translation.
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Last time I looked into this, there were chunks that they were not releasing, or perhaps I was looking at a conspiracy site by mistake? Actually I think the item was on TV. Hum..
 
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Woolly thinking - a Christian is a follower of Christ obviously. Of course there are in our opinion both good and not-so-good Christians, with various attributes.


Not really, just using the lable to cover attitudes rather than religious beliefs.
A

One only has to look at the current problems of the RC church to see what happens when religions get powerfull in the hands of man.
 
innesker said:
If the YBW forum had existed at the time of the Flood, would Noah have posted his story on Scuttlebut or PBO? Or would he have been very daring and chosen the Mobo dark side?
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He would have posted in the Lounge, caused absolute mayhem, the thread would have been closed and Dan would have banned him...........:D
 
strakeryrius said:
It leaves it as an entertaining story.

The religious significance is that it makes Noah a role model of fidelity to his commandment from God to build the ark in the face of opposition, doubting Thomases and ridicule. His perseverance is intended to inspire the faith of others.
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Exactly, so the religious message has shrunk from a terrifying warning about a global catastrophe that actually happened when some people actually annoyed a wrathful god, to a metaphor about obeying god.

It could equally well be a story about a bloke who lost his left shoe and trusted in the word of his deity to look at the back of the cupboard when all around him said they had looked and it really wasn't there. Stirring stuff.
 
The odd time I have looked in the lounge, gasped and ran away.....

Back to 'Noah's' flood. Even if true, the world of most people was pretty small then, so a decent flood would cover the whole of it.
Re dinosaurs: There was an excellent cartoon in the New Yorker of Noah blowing a large hole in them with his 12-bore, as they aproached the ark. One alternative view to the meteorite.
A
 
There are more than 190 odd flood myths. Cockermouth floods could have become a flood myth prior to TV etc and just look at Bangladesh. The reason why every culture has one is that floods happen, big ones enter into folk lore. Just like the big wind of... the terrible snow of.... etc etc. You dont need to look for catastrophic floods covering the whole world as prior to modern communication most peoples worlds consist of a few square Km's.
The bible side of things is a completely separate issue. If the flood is the bit you have a problem with then life is easy. I would have thought creating a flood that covers the whole world to a depth of 1000kms would be easy stuff for an all powerful deity and requires no further thought. If you believe in The Big Guy then the practicalities of precipitation is not really a fly in the ointment. Science works within the rules that we observe but if a deity comes and fiddles with them you cant really ask for a scientific explaination.
 
nonitoo said:
I'm treading on sensitive ground and have no wish to offend anyone but are you sure you should be considering biblical accounts as fact.

I amagine that biblical accounts have, over the years, been told and retold, translated innumerable times, re-interpreted just as many times and, while I have no doubt the core messages are there if you want to look, as a historical document it must be flawed.

The Black Sea flood is as good an account of the Flood as any I suppose as, after all, the Mediterranean has also emptied and refilled via the Straits of Gibraltar, albeit in prehistoric times.

Tom
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Well, I am a lay minister (a Reader), and I don't take the flood narrative seriously as history; I take it as an allegory of God's dealings with humanity (like the Creation narrative). However, Flood narratives are common to all the fertile crescent civilizations, and pre-date the Biblical account by a lot, so perhaps something like the flooding of the Black Sea or Mediterranean basins might be the basis for these stories. However, there may also have been major flooding events in the valley of the Tigris and Euphrates; I recall that there is a major flood event in the stratigraphy of some of the ancient Babylonian settlements like Ur.
 
pmagowan said:
There are more than 190 odd flood myths. Cockermouth floods could have become a flood myth prior to TV etc and just look at Bangladesh. The reason why every culture has one is that floods happen, big ones enter into folk lore. Just like the big wind of... the terrible snow of.... etc etc. You dont need to look for catastrophic floods covering the whole world as prior to modern communication most peoples worlds consist of a few square Km's.
The bible side of things is a completely separate issue. If the flood is the bit you have a problem with then life is easy. I would have thought creating a flood that covers the whole world to a depth of 1000kms would be easy stuff for an all powerful deity and requires no further thought. If you believe in The Big Guy then the practicalities of precipitation is not really a fly in the ointment. Science works within the rules that we observe but if a deity comes and fiddles with them you cant really ask for a scientific explaination.
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One of the best contributions so far - well done!

Many of the Christians here are still trying to rationalise an omnipotent God with their created minds
 
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