A Question for James Jermain. Others welcome to look/contribute.

[eise]

James,
In the August 2004 edition of YM contained a boat test you had done on the, then, new Legend 33.

The following is a copy of a letter e-mailed to Luhrs.

I have spent the last week (5-11August, 2006) sailing in company with a Legend 33 owned by a friend of my Son in Law. During that time it was crewed by my Son in Law,( who is co- Owner, with me, of a Westerly Konsort)and another experienced person, as the owner had limited sailing exoerience.. Both commented on the boats inclination to power up to windward in a gust( Winds were mainly3/4 but up to 5/6) the general conclusion was she was unbalanced,the main appeared to overpower the foresail.

I sailed it on the final day and initially thought, and suggested, that she ought to have a genoa, to balance the main, as they were leading the foresail sheets through the outboard tracks However I spotted the inboard coachroof tracks and suggested we try leading the sheets through them, having done so she sailed perfectly.

I have looked at your website and can only find this,
Aft Mounted Jib/Spinnaker Winches w/Deck Tracks
Are these what I assumed to be Genoa tracks? If so when would you lead the jib sheets through them, and how would you use them with a spinnaker?
( Have since realised that an American Spinnaker is equivalent to our Cruising Chute so SORTED )

Secondly the S/T winch to the Stbd of companionway (used to hoist Mainsail and control Mainsheet) required, in my opinion, excessive force in order to perform either function, in fact the owner said they had broken a winch handle trying to use it at one time, so now used a longer one in order to get more leverage.
The owner has in fact put roller slides on the sail where the batten pockets are, in the hope of making hoisting easier, with no effect.
Likewise the ratio of the mainsheet blocks seems very small compared to that on my Konsort, but as the winch is common to both systems perhaps that is the problem.

I would be glad of your comments regarding the above as I believe that there is potential for a serious incident as the boat is set up now, especially as the owner has limited sailing exoerience.
I can , you you wish, supply Owners details if you are concerned. I do know that the boat was one of the first sold in the U.K.

The boat referred to above WAS THE BOAT YOU TESTED !!

I must say a verbal reply wasn't very helpful. RE-Mainsail hoisting/Hard winching -Was the kicker off?mainsheet uncleated etc.
Someone else has suggested that the main is heavy and that is why it is difficult to hoist.
Did you find the main difficult to hoist?

I have since discovered this site
http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boattest_hunter33.html
Where the Hunter 33(the American Legend 33) is boat tested.
Speciffically read Para 5 Last Sentence and Para 7 2nd Sentence.
Whwn you tested the boat did you use the inboard tracks, which are basic? If not ,why not? Was the boat ready set up for you?I ask because in the large heading photo of your article you are using the outboard ones.More importantly, did you change from inboard to outboard track when bearing away. Finally, the sail plan is designed to use the inboard tracks, if you had used themm then surely her windward performance would have been better than you have indicated in your article.

Would be pleased to receive your reply to all the above.

If you are further interested, have a look at http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=1&uid=F&sku=2006230102405.73

http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=2&uid=F

 

[tome]

Eh?

 

[Tisme]

It looks as if the owner should have checked the boat out properly before he bought it. No point taking JJ to task on the basis of a two year old report.

 

[FullCircle]

Thanks, I found a nice test of my JeanneauSO35 on the sailingmagazine site.
I must say, I am perplexed about what you are asking to be commented on?
If the main is overpowering the boat, then reef it. Thats what happens on modern boats. Mine wants reefing at 15 knots. Sail it upright, and it goes much faster.
Just because your Konsort doent need a change to sailplan does not mean the Legend wont, but it prob goes better in light airs. Of course, if you have too much sail then it will round up in the gusts, and the wide beam aft (giving that lovely spacious aft cabin) wont help upwind, but will make it quicker downwind. Still, cant have everything though.
The winch system for traveller and main control/hoisting is also like my Jeanneau. You must free off the other bits of string to make it work. We discovered this over a seasons use, and now get the main up almost one handed. Put it heading into wind, and up it goes, if you have slack on the reefing lines, the main and the kicker. I have 32.2ST winches, and while not over generous, allow the work to be done.

Cant comment on the tracks, but it makes sense that you will probably improve upwind pointing with the inner tracks.

All in all, I think your post just points to you getting ratty with another boats characteristics, just because they dont match your own.

 

[eise]

To Tisme,
Sorry, in my ignorance, I didn't realise seeking information from was the same as taking to task. Must be more carefiul in future.
For your information, the Owner had bought it, it was borrowed for the test
Time to be honest now tisme. Did you look at the sailing magazine site?
I don't know what boat you sail, but most of the boats I have sailed had one sheet track, not two one for close hauled, the other for reaching---ON THE SAME TACK. How do they do it?
See ...http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?&fno=1&uid=F&sku=2006230102405.73
Post headed Being this issue.
Would really be interested in your comments on info therein.

 

[eise]

To Full Circle,
Thanks for contributing.I submitted a post "Legend Owners" to no effect.
Sorry, wasn't at my best when submitting first post.
Will try to summarise.

There are two problems.

A.The tendency to luff up in the slightest gust. I think the Sail Balance is wrong, not because of size but rather the effect of each sail.
1. Standard foresail track is on coachroof (inboard).Its siting must have been decided upon by the boat designer for optimum sail effect, (Balance)
2.Outboard track, on sidedeck, is optional extra, is also for foresail but it also doubles up as cruising chute track.
Therefore by using outboard track for foresail, is the designed sail balance altered? The slot must be opened quite considerably.
I have looked at
http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/SailTrimSim/TrimSimFrames.htm
an excellent sail/wind simulator and come to the conclusion that, by using the outer track, the main is overpowering the foresail due to the widened slot. The stronger the wind the more the imbalance shows up.
Is my conclusion correct?
I am not a scientist or an expert on aerodynamics, I just think that the inboard tracks were fitted for a purpose, yet every image on the web of a Legend 33 shows the foresail sheet led to the outboard tracks.

B. Something is making the mainsail VERY hard to hoist and I am seeking possible reasons for this.
An American contributor to the Hunter 33 Forum has contributed this
--from just reading these posts over the years, one issue that may present itself as to the mainsail hoist is the mast bend. If it is too great, it can cause problems. The manual will heve the correct setting. Also, check the masthead sheaves. I also know that some owners switched to a 2 to 1 purchase on the mainsail halyard, an easy switch but adding more line to the tail. Rick D.
Don't understand purchase part but it looks as if they might have hoist problems.
Weight of sail too much for winch has been suggested.
Is there a kink in the Mast Track?
Not sure if it has a Topping Lift, if it has, could this and main halyard be twisted? Mentions masthead sheave(s) in U.S.contribution.
Any other possible causes welcome.
Hope this is clearer.

 

[graham]

Re the hard to hoist main the boat needs to be EXACTLY head too wind .the roller batten pockets must be an improvement but would still contribute some friction.

(discounting any mechanical damage to halyard sheeves or mast track/groove )have you tried using one of the PTFE type spray lubricants on the slides/bolt rope?It can make a dramatic difference.

As to the two headsail tracks each side,on a wide beam boat having only one track will allways be a compromise between ideal for hard on the wind and sheets eased sailing.

Changing the upwind sheet prior to tacking isnt too much of a chore , you will benefit in performance and it should lessen the tendency to gripe up into the wind as the headsail will still be drawing higher into the wind..The additional tracks seems like a usefull optional extra to me .

 

[AIDY]

just Looking............ /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[moondancer]

It is very common to have two mainsheet tracks. An inboard track gives a tight angle for upwind sailing the wider track gives a wider slot and better sail angles for reaching.

You can use either the normal sheet leads and swap the tracks when on the appropriate tack or have another set of sheet leads. (I use a pair with a snap shackle so they can be quickly put on the outer track. Fullcircle just thinks I am mean and haven't cut the original sheets long enough to cover both inner and outer tracks!)

With regards to the luffing up. I would suggest that Fullcircle is probably correct and the boat needs to be sailed upright with attention on the mainsail. Either early reefing or playing the mainsheet traveller in the gusts.

It sounds like there must be friction somewhere in the system for a winch to struggle with the mainsail. Does it drop freely? If I were you I would get a good rigger to look at it.


What any of this has to do with JJ, I haven't a clue!

 

[Birdseye]

Sorry but I,m afraid the post doesnt come over very well and I, d be surprised if you got more than a polite brush off from Luhrs.

To try and be helpful - as I understand it, the rounding up in gusts comes about because the shape of the waterplane changes as the boat heels. It moves outwards and become asymetric. The wider the stern, the worse this problem is. It affects all modern boats to a gtreater or lesser degree, hence the need to reef early if a relatively low ballast ratio means the boat heels easily. So let out the main in a gust, tighten up the foot, use the main sheet track. The absence of a backstay with the Luhrs rig means you cant bend the mast and de-power the top of the main.

The question you ask about hoisting the main is really unanswerable for someone not on the boat. It could be anything from a knackered pulley, to a dirty mast track, to the wrong slides etc. I once repainted my old aly mast with two pack white poly and I was astounded how much easier it made sail raising, so if there is nothing obviously wrong the first thing I would do is to clean and lubricate the track. You should really be able to hoist most of the mainsail on a boat that size without a winch.

Cant see the two foresail tracks being for use with the same sail in two positions. Surely it has to be for two different sails?

Hope this post doesnt come over as either rude or patronising - it isnt intended to be either. But I cant see anything practical to be achieved by writing to Luhrs or by e mailing JJ who has in practise to be fairly careful about what he says about any boat under test. You have to read between the lines of a boat test report.

 

[PeteCooper]

It is very common to have two mainsheet tracks. An inboard track gives a tight angle for upwind sailing the wider track gives a wider slot and better sail angles for reaching.

Brian, surely you mean genoa tracks?

 

[alldownwind]

I sailed the same boat (that JJ tested) as we put a returnable deposit on a 33 at the LIBS in 2004, purchase subject to a test sail. I didn't really believe we'd buy one but it seemed worth a try.
We didn't get a good first impression, the skipper from Opal insisted on 2 slabs out of the main in 13-14 knots of wind saying 'it sailed better like that'.
Within 10 minutes we made our mind up. We put a deposit down on a used Moody later the same day!

 

[moondancer]

Slip of the brain

 

[charles_reed]

With the standard 110% jib you'd use the inboard tracks, as you found out.

The outer track would be for a bigger 140% or 150% overlapping genoa.

For a boat with the sail-area claimed the winches are definitely under-spec, however, if the mainsheet comes back to the cockpit, the most likely culprit is friction across the coachroof - to check out trying lifting the main by sweating it up by hand where it comes out of the mast. If it's fairly easy to lift, that's the reason.

If not clean out the mast groove thoroughly, lubricate the slides (or boltrope) with a dry lubricant (PTFE spray or similar) and try again. If that doesn't work you need to replace the slides - try Bainbridge Oilite.

US Hunters always make me appreciate German quality as found in Bavarias.

If I were the correspondent at Luhrs I'd be at a loss to reply to you and my sympathy goes to JJ.

 

[Heckler]

to be honest he came across as being demanding and rude, perhaps wasnt intentional but thats what it looked like.

 

[William_H]

Re weather helm I would certainly agree with modern hull shapes it is more likely the heeling of the boat causes the weather helm than the balance of the sails.
Re 2 tracks for jib sheets. Usually the inner track is further forward for smaller jibs while the outer track is for larger genoa. However an outer track and inner track both usable for for one or more jibs is great.(if the sheeting angle is correct)
For reaching running or beating in really strong winds the outer track is good while for windward working in normal wind strengths the inner track will give better sheeting angle anf better pointing.
I have used successfully a normal sheet through the inner track and a light sheet attached to a pulley and saddle on the gunwhale for running and reaching (equivalent to outer track) The lighter sheet doesn't foul when you tack using main sheets and you can easily transfer load to outer light sheets. Light cos there is little need for tension when running or reaching........ olewill

 

[hocus]

I speak as a very satisfied legend 33 owner.
Re main- mine started to stiffen on hoist half way thru first year but 1 spray ptfe lube on the standard slides has done the trick for > 12 months, and its a slightly built crew who does the hoist. Th ecoach deck winch works fine with a standard short handle, needed as the long one wont fit inside spray hood. Your friend must have got a duff winch, does it need taking apart? However you really do have to be exactly head to wind when hoisting & watch the battens dont rub in the lazy jacks.
Overpowering? Well I think of it more as a lovely big main that powers up fully in F2 so of course you need to reef early, which is one advantage of the third set reefing points so you can keep going above F6. However you do need to use the traveller & dump the extra in the gusts, I recall in the review comment about sailing her free to windward. A chop tends to stop her sooner than other AWB', must be to do with the hulll shape.
2 tracks- not on the model supplied with the "extra" aft winches, but when reasonably set up its the main that luffs first so I wouldnt have thought sheeting genoa any further inboard would be advantageous. It could just be that I accept a wider tacking angle but then I'm not racing & do enjoy the enormous internal volume at the end of the day!
Hope your friend is able to manage some changes & get to enjoy his purchase, but if not, the second hand market seems brisk