A Point Worth Considering!

[TheBoatman]

There's been a lot of talk and posts about marine drink driving on this forum lately and I have just one point to make and that is, you must remember that under British Marine law a British flaged vessel is under the command of her master. It doesn't matter a jot whos helming, who's navigating, who is in control of the sails/throttles.

THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE IS HER MASTER.

You can go into any senario you wish, kids on helm, auto helm running, helm and crew p***ed.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE MASTER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VESSELS CONDUCT.

He/she (the master) can be stone cold sober and sleeping down below, but if the vessel is found to be in breach of the drink laws or any breach of the Colregs, local byelaws then it's the master that carries the can.
Any of you that have read my bio will see that I hold a DTI Boatmans (sorry Boatmasters) Licence and the one thing that has been drilled into me by all of my "instructors" is that you never drink and drive or do anything else that is against UK laws because the penalties are to high to consider! Loss of Licence, prison term, fine etc.

So please lets cut the crap and accept that under UK law the master is responsible for the conduct of his/her vessel and that includes all UK commercial and leisure vessels whether power or sail.

I know that there has been a lot of talk about whether a vessel that is lying to an anchor or on a mooring/pontoon and being asked to move would constitute a breach of the regs, again the bottom line is that the vessel should be able to be moved by persons competant to do so. Saying that the entire crew are p****d is no defence.


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[Moose]

Ahhh, but who is the master?

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[Mirelle]

Lying at anchor

Two years ago, or a little more, the MCA "threw the book" at the Master, Chief Officer and Chief Engineer of a North Sea shuttle tanker who went to the pub with the boatswain in the ship's MOB boat whilst they were at anchor waiting on weather in a firth in east Scotland - all three had their certificates suspended.

The point to note is that not only was the ship safely at anchor, but sufficient qualified officers remained on board to move her as required; she was an Exxon ship so she was "dry" (which I believe was the true cause of the problem).

If that is what they do to professional seamen, whose ship was never in danger, then we can assume that they would do the same to us.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[tcm]

Re: clarification please!

I don't think many disagree - but i for one wd like clarification on some points.

1. The boat is in a marina. It's a bit windy, or whatever, and anyway some friends come round and in the course of the day I drink a lot. I'm still the skipper. Has an offence been committed?

2. still with above, another boat drives into mine. They are sober, I'm not. Have I committed an offence?

3. What if all the above happens at anchor? Does it make a difference if our boat is capabl;e of more than 17 knots?


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[Peppermint]

Re: Because we\'re British

the law will sort this out based on cases. (thats not cases of wine) So until a few (100's) of prosecutions are brought to court you can ask for clarification all you like.

About 2050 we'll all know where we stand.

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[TheBoatman]

Re: clarification please!

tcm
You've missed the point I was making!

It's not for you or me to decide on whether an infringement has occured but for those that do have the power to make such decisions the first person they will haul before the beak will be the master.

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[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: clarification please!

But how might "the master" be defined (Roger Delgado, but I digress!)

I assume that for us average wage slaves beggaring ourselves to get afloat and thus not employing a crew, its the owner, if aboard for the voyage, and the designated scapegoat if you have lent your pride and joy to someone.

Or have I missed the point entirely?

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[Moose]

Re: clarification please!

What is the definition of master? Can the master change on each sector? ie Can I be the "master" when I take the boat to Bembridge today, when I have a drink at Bembridge can I appoint No1 Moose as the master to take the boat back?

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[TrueBlue]

Two sets of rules

What is being missed in this thread is that Two Jags is proposing yet another set of rules which will only muddy the situation.

I suspect that none of you have read the sonsultation document nor the questionnaire.

In general and very IMHO the Merchant Shipping Acts relate to commercial operations and on 'the high seas'. I know of none - would not be able to find out anyway - how many prosecutions had been brought against pleasure boat owners.

TJ's legislation proposes to address this situation and possibly because some bright person in the civil service has spotted that perhaps there is not a problem if one is bladdered in a Marina OR on a ditch - after all that is (well nearly) happens after a good day's cruising, with the result that the courts could become clogged with prosecutions. Accordingly they are asking the punters' opinions. Thus we have until 31st. July to tick the boxes and bung it back to them. Not an onerous task as forum posters presumably have access to the web.

Sorry, boring post again.

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ICOS X: Stop what you're doing and wait my signal

 

[whisper]

Re: Two sets of rules

I've looked at the questionaire but found I couldn't answer it. This was due to the fact that they suggest such stupid criteria as boat design speeds, location, etc as defining whether someone could be breathalised or not - this is total garbage.
If there is a proven problem with leisure boaters "sailing" when under the influence, then ALL boats, irrespective of location, size and speed should fall within the legislation. You can kill someone with a narrowboat on a canal just as easily as with a sportsboat at sea if you are too drunk to handle the craft in question.

What the RYA are doing in accepting such selective jurisdiction beggars belief.

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[BlueSkyNick]

Questionnaire link

Please could you do me a favour and post the link to the questionnaire. It was in the banner of ybw.com but I neglected to look at it then, now I don't know where to look. Google is coming up with loads of irrelevent stuff..

Your help gratefully appreciated.

<hr width=100% size=1>Never test the depth of the water with both feet.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: Provided

you log it, you can change master during a passage, providing it's a fit and proper person taking over.

Whether, in the event of an incident, you could escape blame entirely is doubtful as the owner/charterer has responsibilities too.

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[rickp]

Re: Questionnaire link

A PDF of it is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/yw/pdf/alcohol_consultation.pdf>here</A>. Questionaire bit is consolidated at the back.

Rick

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[cliff]

Re: Questionnaire link

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_shipping/documents/page/dft_shipping_028069.hcsp> Boaty Drink Driving Questionnaire here </A>

Fill it in and have your say - who knows?

It is easy to fill in and plenty of room for personal comments if you feel the question "sucks"

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Stay put when I hit you!

 

[cliff]

"under British Marine law a British flagged vessel is under the command of her master"

Magic word "flagged" - So what if it is not a British "Flagged" vessel?

"So please lets cut the crap and accept that under UK law the master is responsible for the conduct of his/her vessel and that includes all UK commercial and leisure vessels whether power or sail"

Any exactly which "Law" is that and does it apply to pleasure / leisure craft or only to commercial vessels?

"I know that there has been a lot of talk about whether a vessel that is lying to an anchor or on a mooring/pontoon and being asked to move would constitute a breach of the regs, again the bottom line is that the vessel should be able to be moved by persons competent to do so"

Sorry, but if I am tied up at my (leased) pontoon and some joker comes along and asks me to move he will be told to "go away in short jerky motions" even if I am sober. What would happen if I was not on board? How would the boat get moved?

I am at anchor in one or other of my "hideaway" coves or bays, with a slab of beer and case of the good stuff, minding my own business, just what has it got to do with anyone else (apart from my doctor) if I have "one over the eight"? Just the same as if I was sitting at home in my garden. Have we really come to the stage where one cannot smoke in public or drink in private - next thing there will be a ban on playing "doctors and nurses" on board as well.

On points worth considering, how many "polis" boats are there going to be patrolling round looking for pleasure sailors with a wine glass in their hand?.

Raggies are surely in for a real hard time, I mean all this going this way then changing course and going that way then changing course and going the other way. I can see it now,
Aqua-plod 1 " Look at that twerp weaving all over the place"
Aqua-plod 2 "yea, must be drunk let's get him"
Master of sail boat "why are you stopping me?"
Aqua-plod 1 "We have reason to believe..............."
Master of sail boat "Why do you think that"
Aqua-plods "Because, Sir, you keep changing your mind which direction you want to go!"

WRONGFUL ARREST / DETENTION charges coming up!

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Stay put when I hit you!

 

[WayneS]

We run a dry boat before and during sailing. Once tied up in a marina we will have a few but if we are lying to anchor, someone always stays sober.

It is no great shakes and I do not see what all the fuss is about. You cannot drive a racing car when drunk, and that is recreational. See no difference with us.

It's not only about other's safety, it's also about our crew's and our own, not to mentions the rescue services.



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[Neraida]

Which is half the point isn't it? The legislation is already in place and we have all seen examples of how the existing laws are enforced so why start all over again and not just stick with the current stuff.

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[Evadne]

We don't "run a dry boat", and I wouldn't want to patronise you with my philosophy on drinking, but I do take your point about anchoring. If anyone drops a hook then feels safe enough to incapabablise the whole crew with alcohol then I'd like to know what's the name of the anchor they are so trusting in, and where I can get one.

IMHO anchoring is part of sailing, not the same as being tied up in port, and you should remain capable of conning the boat at any time if needed. Even tending the lines against a harbour wall would suggest the need for some level of sobriety. In a marina it should only be necessary to be sober enough to find the boat without tripping into the dock.

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[Juggler7823]

Boaters, particularly those about to visit Eire, might be advised to read the Irish Statutory Instrument 259 of 2004 called The Merchant Shipping (pleasure craft) (lifejacket and operation) (safety) Regualtions 2004. I know its titled "Merchant Shipping" but before anyone jumps to conclusions they should read it. It controls use of craft by youngsters, wearing of lifejackets, being under the influnce of drugs and alcohol and drinking alcohol whilst on board.

Extracts follow:

“pleasure craft” includes personal watercraft and fast power craft;

Application
3. (1) These Regulations apply to pleasure craft being operated in Irish waters and
to -
(a) any person on board such craft, and

Prohibition on operating pleasure craft while under influence of alcohol or drugs
8. The master or owner of a pleasure craft, shall not, or shall not allow another to, operate or control or attempt to operate or control the craft while he or she or the other is under the influence of alcohol or drugs or any combination of drugs or of drugs and alcohol to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the craft.

Control of consumption of alcohol or drugs on board pleasure craft
9. (1) A person on a pleasure craft shall not consume alcohol or drugs or any
combination of drugs or of drugs and alcohol while on board the craft in circumstances which
could affect the safety of persons or create a disturbance on board the craft or affect the safety
of other persons using Irish waters or constitute a nuisance to such persons.
(2) A person being towed or on board a vessel or object of any kind which is being towed by a pleasure craft shall not consume alcohol or drugs or any combinations of drugs or drugs and alcohol.
(3) The master or owner of a pleasure craft shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that all persons comply with paragraphs (1) and (2) of this Regulation.

I hope this is presented clearly enough to read. I have a pdf file of the whole Regs but cannot find it on the web.




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[cliff]

"Extracts follow:

“pleasure craft” includes personal watercraft and fast power craft;"

O.K. so are sail boats included - they are not PWC nor are they fast nor power craft.

"The master or owner of a pleasure craft" O.K. so my daughter takes over as "master" - I'm out of it - where's the Bushmills? Daughter sober and master of vessel.

As for para 9 , so I take myself off to my cabin with my bottle - no problem so long as I don't make too much noise. That is my condition does not affect the safety of persons or create a disturbance on board the craft nor or affect the safety
of other persons using Irish waters or constitute a nuisance to such persons.
I in effect become a passenger as the thousands that use the ferries every day except I dont have to buy a ticket.

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Stay put when I hit you!