A Mayday, really?

What a delightfully bonkers thread! A small piece of floating plastic gets towed into a South Coast Port and causes the end of Britain as a seafaring nation.

How sublime, well done Jonjo!

:encouragement:
 
jonjo5 said:
The fantasy was a mechanism to remind people that even though an RNLI launch is free from the perspective of the CG and the consumer at sea, there might be real imposition and cost for the volunteer crew. Plainly some here cannot percieve this fact, hence the need for dramatic illustration.

Maybe you think an RNLI crew is comprised of unemployed fishermen and other musclebound oiks who cannot gain employment in the modern economy, I in contrast view them and their time with more respect.

As to "grandstanding", that's rich from the forum member who never misses an opportunity to remind us how many new yachts he has purchased in his sailing career.
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There you go again. Extrapolating from a minor incident to predictions of dire consequences.

Get real. You only had half the story but feel obliged to criticise others and escalate it way out of all proportion.

Yes - I have bought 4 new boats in the last 40 years, two of them self build kits, one for commercial use and one for my retirement enjoyment. Can't see there is anything out of the ordinary about that - it is a matter of fact. Some people might be interested in the process of buying new boats (and building them). Posting about it on here is no different from all the other people who post about their "new to me boat".

Clear from this thread there is less approval for those who get worked up about minor things and then use it as a basis for preaching doom. Just read back the nonsense you have written about the possible consequences (in your eyes) of this minor incident - none of which has any evidence to support it. Just your imagination.
 
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laika said:
I'm still not clear what your objective is. Are you saying that you know better what's best for the RNLI than the RNLI and coastguard do? That the coastguard/MCA don't ever talk to the RNLI but call them out to the extent that their resources are stretched impossibly thinly? Has anyone in the RNLI indicated to you that that is the case?
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I am somewhat perplexed as to why Jonjo is getting such a hard time on this. He raises two distinct points:

  1. That we should all be mindful and respectful of the fact that RNLI volunteers have day jobs and may consequently suffer a financial loss by attending a shout. The US and France amongst others routinely charge for towing services. The RNLI would like to keep the service free and that we should not abuse this privileged. I can't see anything contentious there.
  2. Jonjo also refers to the call from the Indian merchant mariner, who was prepared to maneuver his massive (otherwise he'd have chosen St Helen's Roads) and most likely single screw vessel into the inshore waters surrounding Ventnor. This was presumably because the Indians follow something similar to the RYA's Mayday protocol (below). The implication is that this sequence of events serves as a warning for us Solenters to lift our act a bit and also follow the rules. That also seems fair enough to me.

From the RYA website:
"A Mayday call is only to be used in the case of “grave and imminent danger to a vessel or persons, such as fire, sinking, man overboard etc.” So serious is a Mayday call considered to be that in many countries now anyone making a false Mayday call could be prosecuted under criminal law. It is solely intended to save lives."
 
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capnsensible said:
What a delightfully bonkers thread! A small piece of floating plastic gets towed into a South Coast Port and causes the end of Britain as a seafaring nation.

How sublime, well done Jonjo!

:encouragement:
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+1
Perhaps the OP can share their experiences as a volunteer lifeboat crew or MRT member, their skills and thoughts about getting a shout at three am, pulling on clothes that it not quite dry, filling a flask with hot, very sweet coffee and going out into a F10 with freezing horizontal rain?
 
dom said:
I am somewhat perplexed as to why Jonjo is getting such a hard time on this. He raises two distinct points:

  1. That we should all be mindful and respectful of the fact that RNLI volunteers have day jobs and may consequently suffer a financial loss by attending a shout. The US and France amongst others routinely charge for towing services. The RNLI would like to keep the service free and that we should not abuse this privileged. I can't see anything contentious there.
  2. Jonjo also refers to the call from the Indian merchant mariner, who was prepared to maneuver his massive (otherwise he'd have chosen St Helen's Roads) and most likely single screw vessel into the inshore waters surrounding Ventnor. This was presumably because the Indians follow something similar to the RYA's Mayday protocol (below). The implication is that this sequence of events serves as a warning for us Solenters to lift our act a bit and also follow the rules. That also seems fair enough to me.

From the RYA website:
"A Mayday call is only to be used in the case of “grave and imminent danger to a vessel or persons, such as fire, sinking, man overboard etc.” So serious is a Mayday call considered to be that in many countries now anyone making a false Mayday call could be prosecuted under criminal law. It is solely intended to save lives."
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No problem with differentiation between a Mayday and a Pan Pan and the skipper maybe getting it wrong. However as several people have pointed out CG could well have tasked the lifeboat as the most appropriate response even if it was a Pan Pan. The response from the merchant ship is a red herring. Unlikely that would have been appropriate - that is for the CG to decide on the basis of the facts that they have - not the speculation of somebody listening in who does not know everything.

Does not matter how other states deal with emergencies. You never, ever, hear CG or RNLI or the choppers, or any other of our emergency services complain about false alarms. We have a system that is robust enough to cope with them.

As to the predictions that this is the start of the end - that is just nonsense. Does anyone want an environment where they are frightened to call for help for fear of being censured by holy than thou characters on a forum? Or worse, get ignored because they made a mistake?
 
capnsensible said:
What a delightfully bonkers thread! A small piece of floating plastic gets towed into a South Coast Port and causes the end of Britain as a seafaring nation.

How sublime, well done Jonjo!

:encouragement:
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Great entertainment innit?
Just as someone on NTL was saying this place had got boring;)
 
Standard etiquette with rescue situations involving HMCG and RNLI is that the rescuers do not criticise.
When they reach safety, the rescuees will generally be met by the local CG Rescue Team, and it is they who may well gently give advice is it is deemed to be appropriate to do so.
 
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jonjo5 said:
Eventually Solent CG confirmed a 34ft sailing yacht with engine failure a few miles off Ventnor. Shaking my head I continued on to Portsmouth in a useful breeze and assumed there was a subtext that explained the serverity of the distress. But no, that was it.
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I've read through the whole thread and the bit I'm missing is where you got confirmation that the skipper knew how to sail at all?

Because it's a sailing yacht doesn't mean anybody on board is able to sail it (even though they should). It's not unusual- especially at this time of year- for an ebay purchaser to buy a boat and drive it around on the motor for weeks before daring to try the sails- exactly that is happening to the boat berthed next to me.

The RNLI report says the LB mechanic fixed the engine PDQ so it doesn't sound like the problem was necessarily beyond the average seaman, which might again indicate inexperience on the part of the crew and skipper. So;

a) are you sure the crew could competently sail the boat? Were the CG assured of this?
b) if not, does that change perceptions for the skipper, CG, or yourself?
 
capnsensible said:
What a delightfully bonkers thread! A small piece of floating plastic gets towed into a South Coast Port and causes the end of Britain as a seafaring nation.

How sublime, well done Jonjo!
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This thread has been the most active on Scuttlebutt since I started it. Why are so many people prepared to squander their personal time on something so "bonkers"?
 
dom said:
I am somewhat perplexed as to why Jonjo5 is getting such a hard time on this.
[...]
The implication is that this sequence of events serves as a warning for us Solenters to lift our act a bit and also follow the rules.
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Who are "us Solenters" here? If the situation was indeed as jonjo5 speculates based on one side of an overheard radio exchange then none of us here would have made a Mayday call in the same situation so how should "we" lift our act?

Is it news that less experienced boaters sometimes make Mayday calls either because their radio protocol isn't great (because hey, they're inexperienced) or, more likely, because they panic and genuinely perceive greater peril than an outside observer might?

I may have misinterpreted (hence my "whats the point of this thread?" question) but the impression I got was that this started as an "aren't Other People idiots?" thread but the OP has changed tack to criticise the coastguard for not putting such folk in their place. I will argue that if the existing approach of dealing with distress calls and possibly offering friendly advice verbally afterwards hasn't been flagged as seriously flawed by the organisations concerned (coastguard/MCA/RNLI) then what's the problem needing solving? If he's supporting a concern officially (or unofficially) held by the RNLI then that's a different matter.
 
Tranona said:
Does not matter how other states deal with emergencies.
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Is it not even worthy of discussion?

So far in this thread the following has been established:

  1. The majority of forum members agree with me that the underlying situation did not warrent a Mayday call.
  2. A CG insider has confirmed that the CG ops people often internally determine that a Mayday call does not actually relate to a true Mayday situation.
  3. The British interpretation of maritime law is that a Mayday cannot be challenged by the coast guard hence the routine dispatch of lifeboats to non mayday events.
  4. The coxswains of many an RLNI lifeboat would also agree they get dispatched to false Mayday events.
  5. Other countries are so concerned about fivolous Mayday requests they view these as a criminal activity.

Yet in your little world of "no one can pass comment on any sailing matter that interests me" you have determined that this thread should not exist and I am a grandstanding idiot.

One wonders why you bother to participate in this forum unless it is to grandstand and provide the definitive unquestionable holy thn thou advice on all sailing matters.
 
Camelia said:
Yes, for the last 30 years I have been a practicing professional engineer AND was a member of a Mountain Rescue Team for five years, so do speak with some experience of being a volunteer responding to "shouts".
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One of the problems with debates here is that many cannot percieve an environment different to their personal experiences.

In Scotland when someone asks for help 3000ft up a mountain it is reasonable to assume the situation is most likely grave and the mountain rescue team should swing into action.

In walking terms many of these Solent Maydays are the equivalent of someone experiencing loss of a wheel on their shopping trolley half way across the Tesco carpark. These people shout Mayday and expect the coastguard to dispatch someone to fix the problem or worse ship their shopping home for them. These people do not have the personal resourcefulness to think, I have a spare carrier bag in my car so I will get the shopping to the car bag by bag.
 
laika said:
Who are "us Solenters" here? If the situation was indeed as jonjo5 speculates based on one side of an overheard radio exchange then none of us here would have made a Mayday call in the same situation so how should "we" lift our act?

Is it news that less experienced boaters sometimes make Mayday calls either because their radio protocol isn't great (because hey, they're inexperienced) or, more likely, because they panic and genuinely perceive greater peril than an outside observer might?
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According to Dylan on KLT there are two boating areas in the UK, the Solent and everywhere else. It is not unreasonable to assume that the Solent accounts for 50% of leisure boating activity in the UK. If so then irresponsible abuse of distress calls in the Solent can profoundly influence how central government views what demands leisure boaters place on the public purse.

I am not questioning the actions of individual CG officers, they seem to be following a procedure based on a peculiar British interpretation of maritime law.

Where is the heading and why is the RNLI such a willing participant in the current nonsense? I am afraid this leads down a dark sinister route that will result in many more executive paycheques being printed at RNLI HQ. The grip that the RNLI has on the provision of commercial beach watch services in the UK is a portent of what might be coming your way fellow boaters.
 
I just don't understand why some individuals think there should be no consequence for those that act irresponsibly, either deliberately or through sheer ignorance. As someone pointed out there is nothing in the Uk to stop some individual buying a yacht off Ebay and then motoring around to their hearts content until something goes wrong, and all they have to do is pick up the radio and they will enjoy free recovery to a safe haven.

If I buy a car and drive down the road there is always a chance that it might break down or I could be involved in an incident.. The police may attend and render any immediate assistance should circumstances dictate however if it isn't an emergency they won't recover me home will they. They will expect you to have anticipated this possibility and have some kind of breakdown cover, but if you haven't you either have to find an alternative solution of have one called for you and pick up the bill. Why is yachting any different?

I think the RNLI is a magnificent organisation and I have nothing but admiration for their crews that put themselves at peril in order to save lives. We are incredibly lucky to have them and I don't think we do ourselves any favours by abusing the service they provide. Their funding is not limitless and I can see the day when we all be required to have some kind of insurance policy in place to cover the costs of any call outs. Hopefully it will work like a car policy and some of us will be able to work up a significant no claims bonus whilst others may be priced right out of the market......
 
48Interception and disclosure of messages

(1)A person commits an offence if, otherwise than under the authority of a designated person—

(a)he uses wireless telegraphy apparatus with intent to obtain information as to the contents, sender or addressee of a message (whether sent by means of wireless telegraphy or not) of which neither he nor a person on whose behalf he is acting is an intended recipient, or

(b)he discloses information as to the contents, sender or addressee of such a message.

Oh dear. :(
 
I wondered how long it would be before someone dug that out....:)

I remember it from my VHF course and tried to find the actual legislation a while back when there was a similar thread doing the rounds.... but in the end I decided that discussing the merits (or not) or Mayday calls was probably better for the yachting community as a whole than strict compliance of an obscure part of some Wireless Act.
 
l'escargot said:
I had 2 boats with them when based in the Solent. I wonder how many of those on this thread criticising a yacht for being towed in by the RNLI are members...
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I made a donation today, 50p and had no option. My fish & chips at the Master Builders included the donation.
 
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