A man with a machine gun came up to me - or was it a dream

dylanwinter

dylanwinter

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www.keepturningleft.co.uk
In my talks I used to say that we are the luckiest sailors ever to have existed because...

we have immortal boats, perfect weather forecasts (three days out anyway), easy navigation, brilliant communications, beam me up scottie and no men with guns

yesterday out on the clyde the boys were playing with their toys


S2640021-sub.jpg


one of the two police ribs came over to me

as he came up I asked him what the rules were?

he said I can go wherever I like as long as I stay away from the submarine.

The copper had his machine gun nestling in his lap

unless it was all a dream


D
 
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I might have been tempted to play with them just a little.....

"Tell me officer, just how do you suppose my little sailing yacht might be a threat to the safety of that nuclear submarine, even if I did have both the space and the foresight to pack it with enough explosive....?"
 
Rule #1 with these guys is don't even think about playing with them. I've seen a yacht bulldozed sideways out the way. I bet the marine or policeman or whoever was dead polite as he did it too.

Donald
 
Well you see that is my dilemma. I've had enough exposure to "these guys" to be fairly confident as to what they can do and the reasons they need for doing it, but unfortunately that same exposure has led me to hold them in a fairly low regard which means I have no confidence they will follow the rules. Despite the temptation to test them Donald's advice is probably the best to follow.....
 
Triassic said:
I might have been tempted to play with them just a little.....

"Tell me officer, just how do you suppose my little sailing yacht might be a threat to the safety of that nuclear submarine, even if I did have both the space and the foresight to pack it with enough explosive....?"
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Don't even think about making a crack like that out loud to them. They will remain studiously polite but your day is likely to be interrupted.

One of the potential real life problems they face is trying to distinguish between someone who is being moronically stupid and a nut case out to make a political point with some HE. Theres no risk of an unplanned nuclear explosion but there is a remote potential for a lot of pollution if you fractured the wrong bits. Highly unlikely but....
 
When the men in black in a black rib came to look us over I said I was just going to tack away and go that way (pointing towards Cumbre) until they were passed, was that OK? It was. The guy on the front did all the talking. The guy with the big gun could have been a dummy. The guy driving was driving. We didn't get shot at.
 
OK, putting my humour and rather flippant attitude towards these individuals to one side for a moment they need considerably more justification than an off the cuff response to their instruction to "stay away from that submarine" to use any force on you whatsoever. They are bound by exactly the same laws and rules as any other police officer, i.e.: any force they use has to be reasonable, proportionate and necessary in the exercise of their duty. Providing you are observing SOLAS regulations and any other local bylaws, and not doing anything that could be construed as an immediate threat they are fairly limited as to what they can actually do unless they can somehow link you to some other intelligence or information they may be acting on.

Unfortunately sometimes these things can escalate quite easily and accounts afterwards may be somewhat different to how you saw them at the time.....
 
Triassic said:
OK, putting my humour and rather flippant attitude towards these individuals to one side for a moment they need considerably more justification than an off the cuff response to their instruction to "stay away from that submarine" to use any force on you whatsoever. They are bound by exactly the same laws and rules as any other police officer, i.e.: any force they use has to be reasonable, proportionate and necessary in the exercise of their duty. Providing you are observing SOLAS regulations and any other local bylaws, and not doing anything that could be construed as an immediate threat they are fairly limited as to what they can actually do unless they can somehow link you to some other intelligence or information they may be acting on.

Unfortunately sometimes these things can escalate quite easily and accounts afterwards may be somewhat different to how you saw them at the time.....
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I assume they came over, spoke to me, listened to my accent, decided that I am a middle class englishman and decided that I am no threat to anyone.

I did a safety course at the BBC. There are a few rules they give you - number one is to be respectful to blokes with guns and stay clear of bald men with flags. There were few others but that was about all I remember

D
 
dylanwinter said:
I assume they came over, spoke to me, listened to my accent, decided that I am a middle class englishman and decided that I am no threat to anyone.

I did a safety course at the BBC. There are a few rules they give you - number one is to be respectful to blokes with guns and stay clear of bald men with flags. There were few others but that was about all I remember

D
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D, I would have no issue with them coming over and investigating my presence, including speaking to me, that is them simply doing their job. I do have an issue with being given unjustified instructions especially by someone holding a firearm as if that somehow bestows them with more authority than someone who is unarmed. I'm not suggesting you treat them with anything other than respect, but my reasons for doing so are not necessarily the same as others.
 
I think you'll find they have fairly extensive powers if they think a boat is a threat. Here's the rules about where you are supposed to go. And please more that Rules of Engagement (ROE) are not published for hopefully obvious reasons.

Exclusion Zones – Submarines
3.—(1) Whenever a submarine is underway within the dockyard port, no person shall at any time:
(a)enter, pass through or remain in, or
(b)cause or permit any vessel or thing to enter, pass through or remain in
any part of the dockyard port that falls within a zone of 250 metres radius surrounding the submarine.
(2) Notice that a submarine is underway within the dockyard port shall be broadcast by the Queen’s harbour master on VHF channel 73 from time to time during the period in which the submarine is underway.
Exclusion Zone – Surface Vessels
4.—(1) The Queen’s harbour master, on any occasion when it is necessary to facilitate or ensure a clear passage for any surface vessel, may direct immediately before the vessel becomes underway that there be an exclusion zone of up to 250 metres radius in the water around the vessel.
(2) Notice that a direction under sub – paragraph (1) above has been given shall be broadcast by the Queen’s harbour master on VHF channel 73 from time to time during the period in which the submarine is underway.
(3) The vessel to which the exclusion zone applies shall display—
(a)(by day) two diamond shapes vertically disposed where best seen; or
(b)(by night) two flashing red lights at the masthead horizontally disposed.
(4) Where a direction specified in sub-paragraph (1) above has been given and whilst the shapes or light signals specified in sub-paragraph (2) above are displayed—
(a)no vessel underway in the dockyard port, save any vessel authorised by the Queen’s harbour master to escort the vessel to be given clear passage, shall enter the exclusion zone surrounding that vessel; and
(b)vessels alongside, at anchor, at a buoy or at a mooring within the exclusion zone shall remain in such a position whilst the direction remains in force.
(5) The direction shall remain in force until either—
(a)the vessel which is to be given clear passage leaves the limits of the Dockyard Port; or
(b)the Queen’s Harbour Master rescinds the direction and broadcasts notice of the same on VHF Channel 73.
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aquaplane said:
Is that for the Clyde? I don't listen to Ch 73. I usually monitor 16 and sometimes 14 but I don't often go north of Kip.
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Pretty much every harbourmaster has the authority to apply exclusion zones around military vessels that are both underway and moored. Like I said earlier, you do need to observe bylaws.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I think you'll find they have fairly extensive powers if they think a boat is a threat. Here's the rules about where you are supposed to go. And please more that Rules of Engagement (ROE) are not published for hopefully obvious reasons.
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I love that they refer to "sub-paragraphs" in the regulations
 
The USN definitely has no sense of humor with this regard. Having had several crew killed when a small vessel came up to the USS Cole.
Rumor has it 100 m and 50 cal. This may vary a bit for cigarette boat or centaur. They visit my home waters. The word is get to close they will fire.
 
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Several years ago I was tacking down the Juan da Fuca Strait. Even from 1/2 hour away I could tell that I was going to intersect perfectly with a US submarine. I kept going until there was perhaps 5 or 10 minutes left until intersection, when one of the escort boats moved in front of me and I tacked away, back towards Canada.

A year later the US Navy announced a new rule allowing them to shoot across the bow of any boat approaching a submarine. I have often wondered if the name Foolish Muse came up in their deliberations. My one an only interaction with the US War Machine resulted in a significant policy change. I feel important.
 
Triassic said:
"and not doing anything that could be construed as an immediate threat they are fairly limited as to what they can actually do"

"even if I did have both the space and the foresight to pack it with enough explosive"

You would know it was a joke, they wouldn't! They would react appropriately to a perceived threat.
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