A man with a machine gun came up to me - or was it a dream

[dylanwinter]

Will this feature on a KTL episode? I'm surprised they let you take photographs of those things.

best not point anything at a man with ther gun - not even a camera

 

[agurney]

.. he said I can go wherever I like as long as I stay away from the submarine.

The copper had his machine gun nestling in his lap

They have good reason to be wary, there's a history of incidents involving folks from the peace camp with RIBs;
and think of the havoc you could cause by lobbing a hand grenade through that hatch that's clearly visible on the port side of the (sail? conning tower?).

You were lucky. A few (well, many) years ago we were in the Holy Loch. The American sentries were somewhat more hostile and pointed their guns at us, that certainly made us go about pretty sharpish.

 

[Mister E]

You are absolutely right, but that was in Angola. Are you suggesting that we should let the British police adopt a similar attitude without at least offering some kind of resistance, or at the very least registering some disapproval?

The last part applies to the British Police under the various anti terror legislation done in a secure police station. They do have the power to keep suspects for a long time without charge under these powers.

Dylan to me has the best attitude in these circumstance. Yes sir and move away seems good advice to me.

 

[BobnLesley]

The USN definitely has no sense of humor with this regard...The word is get to close they will fire.

Glad I didn't know the second part at the time: About two years ago we were sailing down the Chesapeake Bay and just entering the James/Elizabeth Rivers en-route to Norfolk Virginia, when we noticed a US Battleship with about half a dozen smaller boats around it approaching from the ocean and gaining on us rapidly. Then we got the VHF call: "This is USS xxx calling the small yacht approaching Hampton from the north, you are approaching within 1000 yards and must clear the area." I replied - politely - pointing out that it was actually they who were approaching us and there wasn't a whole lot I could do about it. To the suggestion that I "increase your speed to at least twelve knots", I commented that perhaps he'd had much experience on sailboats? 5.5 knots was as good as it gets. His next suggestion, that I "move immediately to starboard and keep clear by 1000 yards" confirmed the opinion, we were already less than 150 yards from the beach and our yacht at least doesn't have wheels! As a compromise, I enquired as to which channel they intended taking once clear of the narrows, offering to steer up the other ourselves until they were passed and clear; apparently "for security reasons that information cannot be broadcast". We guessed that they'd be heading up the Elizabeth River to the Naval Yards, so trundled away up the James, before turning back into the Elizabeth River a good 1000 yards behind them.

 

[dunedin]

Some very bizarre responses on this thread.

Sounds like a RIB came by politely - and didnt give any "instructions", simply replied to Dylan's question with a very flexible and pragmatic response ....

One of the two police ribs came over to me - as he came up I asked him what the rules were?
he said I can go wherever I like as long as I stay away from the submarine.

Sounds like guys just doing their job in an effective way - and in a quiet low season perhaps just came past to be friendly with a rare fellow boat on the water

It's a pretty wide bit of Clyde, and seems sensible to keep clear of a large vessel which doesn't have the best manoeverability on the surface.

Chill out guys and, like Dylan, enjoy the relaxing sail and the beautiful scenery

 

[NorthRising]

Ah Greenpeace and the peace camp, now I can tell you a story about a Greenpeace action in the Clyde and a ballistic missile submarine. Note though I'm not taking sides, it did give me a chuckle.

So rib full of activists (my good friend onboard) trying to board the submarine, and the usual plethora of guard ribs. So activists proceed toward sub at speed are headed off at speed. But tactically outwit plod by throwing engines into neutral. Activists now sub side of guard. In a fit of pique plod throws boat into tightest turn in the process dumping two of his unseamanlike colleagues who were not holding on into the water. And had to pull out of the chase because one of the two plod had not buckled lifejacket and needed pulled out asap. I believe Greenpeace offered to assist but the offer was declined.

 

[Ric]

In my talks I used to say that we are the luckiest sailors ever to have existed because...



one of the two police ribs came over to me

as he came up I asked him what the rules were?

he said I can go wherever I like as long as I stay away from the submarine.

D

You should have just replied - "what submarine?"

 

[capnsensible]

hatch that's clearly visible on the port side of the (sail? conning tower?).

.

Fin :encouragement:

 

[agurney]

Thanks

 

[Triassic]

The last part applies to the British Police under the various anti terror legislation done in a secure police station. They do have the power to keep suspects for a long time without charge under these powers.

The last part of your post I was quoting reads:

"Unless of course you want checking for hidden objects by a large man wearing big rubber gloves, provided he does not have a reason (to him) to shoot you)."

In order to exercise the powers to detain you for examination under anti-terrorism legislation they are going to need considerably more grounds than a flippant or less than complimentary remark, probably only exceeded by those necessary to get an internal examination authorised, or to shoot you......

You really don't have a clue do you?

 

[zoidberg]

Dunno about the Clyde, but there's a gentler and more productive 'co-operation' on the Tamar/Devonport.

Small sail-cruiser at bottom end of club moorings, closest to Weston Mill Lake where the 'grey funnel liners' and old subs are moored. MoDPlod boat regularly patrols up and down nearby, with armed crew.

Police types are trained to notice unusual behaviour, so a yottie in said 'small sail-cruiser' waving them over caught their eye. A close approach was made.... stopped alongside.... 'What do you want, sir?'

Small foil-wrapped parcel tossed over - and caught. "What this?" said alarmed Plod

"Cake. Home-made.... Got too much here, Not allowed down to the boat without being given a fresh home-made cake....."

Plod takes parcel back to wheelhouse. Inspects. Moments later, thumbs up and smiles from occupants.

"Why did you do that?" said bemused companion.

"Well, it's operant conditioning, innit. Every time, now, they pass this boat, they'll salivate and peer into the cockpit to see if anyone is aboard and if there's any cake going. Cheapest insurance on the river......"

 

[Mister E]

The last part of your post I was quoting reads:

"Unless of course you want checking for hidden objects by a large man wearing big rubber gloves, provided he does not have a reason (to him) to shoot you)."

In order to exercise the powers to detain you for examination under anti-terrorism legislation they are going to need considerably more grounds than a flippant or less than complimentary remark, probably only exceeded by those necessary to get an internal examination authorised, or to shoot you......

You really don't have a clue do you?

You clearly do not have a sense of humour.

But if you want to show the anti terrorist acts that I have got wrong I am more than happy to be shown wrong.

 

[Triassic]

On the contrary, I clearly do have a sense of humour which is why in my opening post I said I would be tempted to play with them.....

I've only got all serious when people started making all kinds of ludicrous suggestions as to what might happen if these gun totting police officers were unhappy with me, although I acknowledge I did make my opening quip fully expecting that response.

I'm not disputing the powers available under anti-terrorist legislation, it's just that after a career using them I seem a little more conversant with the circumstances under which they can be exercised than you are.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

On the contrary, I clearly do have a sense of humour which is why in my opening post I said I would be tempted to play with them.....

I've only got all serious when people started making all kinds of ludicrous suggestions as to what might happen if these gun totting police officers were unhappy with me, although I acknowledge I did make my opening quip fully expecting that response.

I'm not disputing the powers available under anti-terrorist legislation, it's just that after a career using them I seem a little more conversant with the circumstances under which they can be exercised than you are.

Tried making a bomb joke in an airport recently? Apparently its not funny. Similarly jokes about HE and subs dont go down to well (pun intended).

As for seppos, yeah dont even think about it. Theirs is a very VERY paranoid culture and they have little regard for foreigners' concept of security. Gig venue: UK middle stream band, backstage doors wide open. US also ran band the place was like fort flippin knox!, as if terrorists had any interest in a bunch of metal kids.

 

[Mister E]

For those interested the Anti Terrorism Act 2001 and the Protection of Freedoms Acts 2012 make interesting reading for those who might think about making stupid jokes in relation to submarines.

The areas that the subs operate in are coved by the special powers of both acts.

 

[Triassic]

For those interested the Anti Terrorism Act 2001 and the Protection of Freedoms Acts 2012 make interesting reading for those who might think about making stupid jokes in relation to submarines.

The areas that the subs operate in are coved by the special powers of both acts.

The 2001 Act? Could you refer us to the particular Part, Section or Schedule that you think is relevant?

I'm not quite sure how we ended up discussing Anti Terrorism legislation, none of the powers being exercised by the police in these RIBs is derived from it, and persons making inappropriate comments relating to bombs and explosives are usually dealt with under the Public Order Act or the Criminal Law Act 1977, neither of which would apply to the sentence I suggested in my first post.

 

[alahol2]

US also ran band the place was like fort flippin knox!, as if terrorists had any interest in a bunch of metal kids.

Bataclan?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I sailed almost daily around these submarines for many years during the Polaris and early Trident days. The American base at Holy Loch was pretty interesting as you could sail very close to the floating dock with an ICBM submarine along side. The Americans would lower a tube from the floating dock onto the submarine and pull the ICBM inside, the top of the missile would just stick out the top of the tube. The UK Police boat would sit right on the limit of the exclusion zone and slowly follow me as I sailed by. We did take photos, lots of pictures and no one was bothered about it. The American soldiers that guarded the facility were obvious, deliberately so, plenty placed around the floating dock, armed up and looking serious, but I never felt threatened at all. Relations between the Americans and the sailing community was very good, they understood that we all had to share the water and there was never any bolshyness.

On the British side I have been photographed and filmed regularly from patrol boats, helicopters and ribs. This was to be expected as the Peace Camp back then was much bigger and more active. On one occasion after passing through Helensburgh (driving my Triumph T120 Chop), I was pulled over by the police and questioned, probably because I looked like a scruff and a non desirable with torn jeans, leather., beard and half face. I was heading up the side of the Gare Loch to Balirvadach where I was teaching dinghy sailing; there was a particularly large anti Trident demonstration that weekend. As I turned off the road to the centre the police were waiting, I guess to make sure I drove in and did not drive past and onwards to the peace camp.

It was great fun surfing down the bow waves of the submarines and racing to get through the Rhu narrows (narrower in the Polaris days) before any of the vessels with restrictions arrived. I felt that the Police had other on water / air security and had a job to do that was pretty obvious. If you followed the rules everything would be OK. I am sure that they had more than a passing awareness of the regular sailors and their boats.

These days it is very quiet regarding submarines and Navy goings on. On one occasion I counted 4 submarines transiting up / down to the Cumbrae Pass; lucky if you see one now. On one regatta, long offshore feeder to what was then the Tomatin Series (Scottish Series), we had a fleet of yachts in very light wind conditions as a USA (fins on the conning tower) Polaris submarine came down the Clyde with the police escort boat. They actually manoeuvred through the fleet and no one was asked to get out the road by the police boat. The Americans were far more relaxed about it all. They sponsored the Polaris regatta as well, great food and drink hosted on their Holy Loch base.

If someone wanted to act like an arse around the security I am sure they would deal with it as appropriate in an appropriate manner. Plenty of stories of tourists and visitors wandering around the hills and being intercepted by either regular police on the road or special people in the fields / hills. You don't have this amount of world ending weaponry accumulated in one place and rely on Group 4 patrols.

 

[Mister E]

The part that mentions dockyards and other military target in section 44 (I think).
The zones that are set up that give extra powers.
The bit about threatening a terrorist act.
Probably have incendary device (flare) as the means to carry out the threat.

All from the first act then cross referenced with the later one that repealed sections of the earlier one. Specifically stop and search with no cause (you would have given them that) the equipment, and the reduction in the detention without trial from 28 to 14 days.

I am wondering how Dylan had that much luck to be that close to a sub. I have never even seen one in the distance to get an idea of the size, compared to a WW2 sub.

 

[robertj]

I might have been tempted to play with them just a little.....

"Tell me officer, just how do you suppose my little sailing yacht might be a threat to the safety of that nuclear submarine, even if I did have both the space and the foresight to pack it with enough explosive....?"

They can kill you without redress. Treat them as what they are.