A Man Who does not mince his words.

Shaz77 said:
Life po4 does not in its self catch fire very easily but if damaged, overcharged or the BMS fails and the BMS is more likely to fail than the actual cells, it can produce a mass of hydrogen gas and when mixed with air can be set off by a spark from another source.
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Do they ?

I do get the confusion as say Google AI agrees with you as does a bloke on Reddit - though more scholarly articles do not agree if you take the time to read further.

I would say that if your source is google and you wish to believe it, as is your right, - even that points out that as you'd need damage and over charging to get small amounts of hydrogen compared to the amounts every LA gives off in normal daily undamaged charging. The LiFePo4 chemistry is rather lacking in hydrogen atoms except in the organic electrolytes that use ethylene which of course is a hydrocarbon , though one which is surprisingly difficult to release hydrogen from
 
Marsali_1 said:
Please explain the source of the hydrogen gas you say can be produced by the failure of a BMS attached to a LiFePO4 battery cell. Which part of the battery (anode, cathode, electrolyte, case) contains the hydrogen which gets emitted as a gas?
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See this paper (which I also linked to in the 'other thread'). I am fully aware this was an in vitro (in lab, not real world) study, and the authors are Oriental colleagues, but it does seem to suggest LiFePO4 batteries can produce more than enough hydrogen at least in theory to blow your cotton socks off, and possibly a lot more, in certain circumstances. I think at least for me, and others who still have an open mind and are undecided, more reading of proper research is needed to clear this one up.

Trident said:
Google AI agrees with you
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Never trust google AI, it's answers are often rubbish. It's much more fun if read for the entertainment value. Not so long ago I asked it for the torque setting for standard M8 brass bolts. It confidently gave me the settings for high tensile steels. I only realised because (a) the settings seemed very high and more to the point (b) I recognised the grade (property class) numbers they used as being high tensile steel grade numbers (8.8, 10.9 etc). Anyone who didn't spot that for whatever reason would end up with a big pile of bust brass bolts.
 
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aqua_sax said:
Never trust google AI, its answers are often rubbish. It's much more fun if read for the entertainment value. Not so long ago I asked it for the torque setting for standard M8 brass bolts. It confidently gave me the settings for high tensile steels. I only realised because (a) the settings seemed very high and more to the point (b) I recognised the grade (property class) numbers they used as being high tensile steel grade numbers (8.8, 10.9 etc). Anyone who didn't spot that for whatever reason would end up with a big pile of bust brass bolts.
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Last time I checked google AI was still saying the Austrian-Hungarian empire colonised Mars in the late 19th century
 
aqua_sax said:
See this paper (which I also linked to in the 'other thread'). I am fully aware this was an in vitro (in lab, not real world) study, and the authors are Oriental colleagues, but it does seem to suggest LiFePO4 batteries can produce more than enough hydrogen at least in theory to blow your cotton socks off, and possibly a lot more, in certain circumstances. I think at least for me, and others who still have an open mind and are undecided, more reading of proper research is needed to clear this one up.



Never trust google AI, it's answers are often rubbish. It's much more fun if read for the entertainment value. Not so long ago I asked it for the torque setting for standard M8 brass bolts. It confidently gave me the settings for high tensile steels. I only realised because (a) the settings seemed very high and more to the point (b) I recognised the grade (property class) numbers they used as being high tensile steel grade numbers (8.8, 10.9 etc). Anyone who didn't spot that for whatever reason would end up with a big pile of bust brass bolts.
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An interesting paper and thank you for the link.

I note in the conclusions they say in #2 that the lithium cobalt battery cells release between 3.2 and 4.9 times more total gasses as LiFePO4 cells as a result of thermal runaway.

While they state in #3 that LiFePO4 gasses contain a greater % of hydrogen gas than the other chemistry, they do state:"...LFP [LiFePO4] batteries have better thermal stability compared to NCM [lithium cobalt] batteries during normal use and thermal stability tests. However, in the case of a large-scale battery thermal runaway incident, such as in an energy storage power station, considering the gas production components, LFP batteries may be more dangerous..." (my emphasis).

I take from their results that, as been stated by several posters on this forum, LiFePO4 cells are safer than the other type and that the scale of battery likely in use on a cruising sail boat is not going to be a significant enough source of hydrogen to sustain a fire for very long. Indeed there are many other flamable items on a boat that will be either burning or off-gassing toxic and/or flamable vapours at ~180 °C which they say is the point of thermal runaway for a LiFePO4 battery and which is between 40 and 50 °C higher than the thermal runaway temperature of the other chemistry.

I don't think that Trident was suggesting that Google AI was a credible information source, rather the opposite if you take his comment in context with the rest of his post.
 
Trident said:
On a boat owned by the director of an electronics company of all things , I had to replace inverters that caught fire (eBay again £30 when a suitable Victron was £300... isn't an inverter just an inverter he asked? )
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Thanks for that. I recently saw a 2kw inverter for about £60 on one of the adds that plague my phone, and was tempted for a moment.

My gut feeling (at least as reliable as other people's prejudices) is that that inverter would be at least as likely to burn my boat as a cheap Lithium setup.

As for "It needs all this unreliable electronics to keep it safe, so it must be dangerous" Well, yes. I'd better get rid of my car, my phone and computer and never use a lift. As for flying,:eek:😨:eek:. No wonder the things keep falling out of the sky! Maybe I'll get myself a Tiger Moth.
 
Stemar said:
Thanks for that. I recently saw a 2kw inverter for about £60 on one of the adds that plague my phone, and was tempted for a moment.

My gut feeling (at least as reliable as other people's prejudices) is that that inverter would be at least as likely to burn my boat as a cheap Lithium setup.

As for "It needs all this unreliable electronics to keep it safe, so it must be dangerous" Well, yes. I'd better get rid of my car, my phone and computer and never use a lift. As for flying,:eek:😨:eek:. No wonder the things keep falling out of the sky! Maybe I'll get myself a Tiger Moth.
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Actually I really fancy building a Tiger Moth .. I love the idea of take off from a field at 30 mph and gentle flying around the countryside.

As to inverters etc - the cheap ones are really designed to be plugged in to a car for 20 minutes or so whilst you sit there with it and do whatever it is you need it for. Even then I'd get a small Victron but for long term regular or continuous use on a boat I'm happy with Renogy for the former (long periods regularly ) or Victron for the same or continuous use (mine hasn't been switched off for over 3 years now running fridges, freezer, induction cooking, air fryer etc day in day out and doesn't even get hot) . There are on or two others (I know Geem has the same model I had before I got the Victron - Power Star I think) but Victron kit has dropped in price so much in recent years that there's just no reason not to get their stuff and know its as safe as is possible
 
Marsali_1 said:
I don't think that Trident was suggesting that Google AI was a credible information source, rather the opposite if you take his comment in context with the rest of his post.
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I agree, it is just I can never resist a chance to have a pop at google AI or indeed AI in general whenever an opportunity presents itself.
 
Trident said:
Actually I really fancy building a Tiger Moth .. I love the idea of take off from a field at 30 mph and gentle flying around the countryside.
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Me too, but I'm getting a bit long in the tooth for this Biggles flying jacket, open cockpit malarkey.

When I was 17, I did a flying scholarship on Cessna 150s. SImple, like a 1960s car, and pretty slow, One of the instructors could make them hover - full flaps, plenty of welly and a silly high angle of attack. He got away with it, but I wouldn't like to try without plenty of altitude to get out of a spin.
 
ylop said:
I’ve not done this but I think if you search the forum you’ll find more people with first hand experience of exploding LA batteries than LiFePO.
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I've seen a few and actually had one explode in front of me. I know someone who had a battery explode under the seat of a Transit van, almost lost the sight in both eyes and had permanent scarring on his face.

IMG-20210626-WA0000.jpg
 
New Footage of the explosion, yes the actual explosion and if you are not shocked then I do not know what shocks you. Anyone standing alongside or in the boat would have died or been on life support in intensive care. These batteries are said to be
Life po4
See youtube and search.
Electric narrow boat battery BLAST-
NEW FOOTAGE!
Stached Training
Perhaps someone will put the link up.
 
It’s just more of the same guesses based on ignorance of the facts. The YouTuber does not know the type of batteries, does not know where they were stored and is assuming. There is no facts around the ignition source, the combustible material or the energy source.

It’s just click bate designed for more likes, watches, subscription.

In my opinion not worth watching as there is nothing new being said.

I am not shocked, and yes, you do not know what shocks me.
 
RunAgroundHard said:
It’s just more of the same guesses based on ignorance of the facts. The YouTuber does not know the type of batteries, does not know where they were stored and is assuming. There is no facts around the ignition source, the combustible material or the energy source.

It’s just click bate designed for more likes, watches, subscription.

In my opinion not worth watching as there is nothing new being said.

I am not shocked, and yes, you do not know what shocks me.
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Thanks, I was going to ask is there anything new in there

And do we need yet another thread on exactly the same topic - perhaps the Mods could move this to the other threads on the same topic. EDIT - Thank you mods !

I am very interested in this - BUT only when there are some objective facts from an unbiased source.
 
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Shaz77 said:
New Footage of the explosion, yes the actual explosion and if you are not shocked then I do not know what shocks you. Anyone standing alongside or in the boat would have died or been on life support in intensive care. These batteries are said to be
Life po4
See youtube and search.
Electric narrow boat battery BLAST-
NEW FOOTAGE!
Stached Training
Perhaps someone will put the link up.
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Old news Do keep up. This has already been posted and dissected in depth - not that there is any real depth. All the usual guess work in the absence of any facts other than there was an explosion followed by a fire on a boat. Why are you giving any credence to somebody who lives thousands of miles away so has no first hand knowledge

You must be a really sad person to keep on trying to find something that is not there.

Learn how to post links - not difficult, even I can do it.
 
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Shaz77 said:
New Footage of the explosion, yes the actual explosion and if you are not shocked then I do not know what shocks you. Anyone standing alongside or in the boat would have died or been on life support in intensive care. These batteries are said to be
Life po4
See youtube and search.
Electric narrow boat battery BLAST-
NEW FOOTAGE!
Stached Training
Perhaps someone will put the link up.
Click to expand...
I can't be bothered to search or even watch the video posted by RunAgroundHard.

When some proper experts visit and view the boat and come up with a possible / lightly cause I will be more interested.
 
There is new footage - of the actual explosion. If it is a fake, it is a very good fake. The youtube version is here.

I have extracted the individual frames from the video (mediainfo says it is 60fps) for the explosion and put them side by side.

explosion frame by frame cropped.jpg

Looking at those images you are looking at fact, ie what happened, unless the video is fake, which I doubt, but don't rule out. How you interpret the images is, on the other hand, in the absence of other facts, speculation.

We must all be thankful no one was on board or nearby at the time, and the vessel was apart from other vessels.
 
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