A-Flags

[Jeep]

Now I really don't want to cause any offence here as I sail as well as dive but recently I have been out on several dive boats and there are a lot of sailors out there who don't know or just don't care that a blue/white A-flag means there are divers in the water. The sea is a big place, is it really that difficult to give other water users a bit of space? I know its great when you're healed over and right on the wind but the col regs don't just consist of 'Here I come and I'm sailing!'.

 

[BrendanS]

It would help if dive boats actually used flags that conformed to regulations, not some limp 3cm square faded thing impossible to see at any distance.

Out of hundreds of dive boats, I can only recall a few that actually flew regulation flags

 

[Jeep]

I agree, but the flag has to be proportional to the boat and yes they're not always easy to spot because of wind direction. The boat I was on today had two and it took much waving, shouting and horn blasting to warn off the only boat for several miles. Maybe he was below making a cup of tea.

 

[BrendanS]

You do understand col regs on flying divers flags don't you? and that the flag should not be under a metre in height, should be rigid, and that 'measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility'.

If dive boats actually understood the regs and flew such flags, there would be few problems

Rule 27 (e) ii
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:

i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
ii) a rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

 

[bedouin]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but the flag has to be proportional to the boat and yes they're not always easy to spot because of wind direction. The boat I was on today had two and it took much waving, shouting and horn blasting to warn off the only boat for several miles. Maybe he was below making a cup of tea.

[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC the requirement is not a flag, but a "rigid replica of the flag at least 1 m tall". I can't honestly say I've ever seen a boat displaying one

 

[BrendanS]

Problem is that none of the dive boats know the regs, or if they do, they totally ignore them. Then scream blue murder when people can't tell they are a dive boat

 

[wooslehunter]

A sailor and a diver has complained quite politely that some boat owners don't seem to respect A flags. Well' he's right. As another sailor and diver I know.

This is reality and most dive boat skippers do understand the col regs. On a 5.5m rib it is not practical to comply with the regs as stated above. However because an A flag is not rigid and only 0.5m doesn't meen it can be ignored. Where practical, the dive boats do carry a rigid A flag of the prescribed size. They rarely carry the lights since most diving takes place during the day and in fact the lights simply meen a vessel restricted in its ability to manouvre.

If you see an A flag you must keep clear. If you hit a diver then you won't get very far in court if all you can rely on is that "the flag was the wrong size so we ignored it".

 

[Jeep]

Thankyou wooslehunter. 'Restricted in its ability to manouver' is also a bit of a misnomer if you're following a marker buoy (or several).

 

[BrendanS]

Try going around the southern coast. Most flags are floppy and about 6 to 12 inches, and unless there is a breeze, they flop down around the pole and are near enough invisible.

The regs state that the 1m rigid is for vessels not large enough to carry proper shapes, so makes no recognition that it might be impracticable. If a dive boat want's to be able to protect it's divers, it should carry something clearly visible, which quite clearly most dive boats don't

Also, just visit a few dive forums, and you'd be amazed how many dive boats don't know the colregs or the requirement for a 1m rigid.

I do keep clear, in fact I keep clear of dive floats as well, particularly round Portland where dive boats commonly 'lose' their sheep, and have driven up and pointed out lost ones more than a few times, as said dive boats don't seem to monitor vhf on any commonly used channels

 

[Jeep]

Don't worry Brendan, you've well and truly put me in my place. Bye.

 

[BrendanS]

That's it? You are not going to defend yourself and say at least you knew the regs and the boats you were on were compliant? That your A flags on the several diveboats you've been on recently have taken steps to make sure the A flag is visible?

If you are going to post on the subject, I'd at least know I'm talking to someone that understands the issues of rounding headlands like Portland when there can be many boats in the area, and I'd like to know which boats to avoid, and where the divers might be, and most people don't understand that little sausage buoys are actually more important to avoid as it means the diver is right underneath, and the dive boats should be over them, not 300m away and lost

 

[AlJones]

Jeep and Wooslehunter

I agree with you, hoping not to sound like Uncle Albert, but when I was in the Navy I was a ships diver and I can state that when out in the Zodie there wasn't room for anything but the 'Token' rag.

A point I find surprising is that why do people moan and groan about us bubble heads being in their way, when nine times out of ten we're going to be diving on a wreck or fishing around rocks etc:

I too sail, more than I do dive now, but I have a 7.9m RhIB set up as a dive boat with all the toys, that has a bloody big wooden A-flag that is on a spinning pole attatched to my samson post up fwd. A standby diver ready to go and others with dive gear on, and we still get MOBO and Raggies venturing too near.

The A-flag is not taken notice of, so how about flying Code Romeo-Yankie as well? Do you reckon that would be heeded?

Thoughts

Al Jones.

 

[BrendanS]

On south coast between Portland Bill and Poole, you'll find dive boats right on inshore passageways, and the flags are so small as to be useless from less than 50 feet. That's the issue.
I'm very aware of avoiding them, yet still can't spot them from a distance, even though I like to give all stationary boats a decent amount of room where possible

However, as I've said, far more worrying, particularly around Portland Bill, is the fact that the dive boats are no where near the divers and their personal floats.

If the rigid 1m is unpracticable, why are the dive associations not doing something about it, and in the meantime educating the dive boat owners to present something that can be seen from a reasonable distance?

 

[PilotWolf]

Well as my posts are often controversial I ll agree with Brendan... having worked in the Solent and now along the south coast the attempts at displaying the A flag are a joke.

I m afraid that dive boat skippers don't exactly have much respect from other 'professionals' including (I believe) the MCA so rightly or wrongly they should be putting 110% effort into being $hit hot at what they do... I mean I don't know of any other type of skipper who can lose a 'passenger' one day and be at sea the next day because (I quote) - " ...got to earn a living mate, not my fault if they don't know what they re doing. I just take 'em out."

PW.

 

[fireball]

Part the problem is that is is very difficult to see the dive boat - let alone any flag/board they may be flying - even from 1 mile away. And then the divers have to trust that other water users understand the signal - most posting on here will - others certainly will not.

How far is keep clear though? Is 0.5Nm enough? or can it be closer? At what point does the diver start getting concerned? Does it differ between saily boats with sodding great keels to Brendans powerboat that hardly comes in contact with the water?

 

[AlJones]

Hi Brendan

Your spot on, Portland can be a nightmare.

As you do, if I see something not moving in the water, I can't help puting a watch on it. Are they in trouble, Is it a dive boat, all these things are common sence as I know you know, but we are all aware, there are some numbnuts out there.

Here's one for all the buding engineers out there, remember where you heard it first.

A large helium filled reuseable metalic balloon attatched to the boat which will hover above the dive vessel, the shape could be like a rain catching radar reflector and each section showing the A-Flag. Being metalic would this be Radar reflective? I don't know.

I've proberbly just done my self out of some wonga now!!!!

Remember where you heard it first guys, I here by state that this is my invention and require 10p for every one thats ever sold!!

Do you think that may work as a paitent?

Thought not.

Al Jones

 

[fireball]

No - but I'm sure my neices would like one.... how much?

 

[BrendanS]

Good idea, and would certainly help, though in anything other than a light breeze, a balloon of that sort would be very near the surface of the water very quickly. Great idea in low winds though, and any ideas like this would certainly help

Maybe post on some of the dive forums with this, and ask for other ideas, anything that promotes knowledge can't do anything but help, even if it gets a bit heated at times. I've been near to driving over divers round Portland, and the response from the dive boat has been lackadaisical to say the least, which is why I get so heated on this topic, and luckily I'm aware and looking for them unlike many others. One day there will be a nasty accident, and the boat helm will be blamed.


Come to think of it, if the divers personal surface floats were helium filled and floated 3' above water surface, that would also help!

 

[Guest]

They use the metallic balloons on the long nets off Italy.

You do get some reflection from them. It certainly helped me find the end of those monsters so I could go around.

 

[AlJones]

Old school, 80% common sense, 20% knowledge!!

Next time they get to be in your way, stop, give them some scotch brite and tell 'em to get a scrubbin'.


i think your right, it is going to take a nasty accident before things are taken notice of.

We're not having a dig at other user's of the ogin, friendly advice is all!!

AJ