A different toilet question - hose clips, hose

[Venus1]

Help please. Just replaced pump on jabsco toilet (complete pump for manual toilet, using existing hoses). All went well - except now I have a tiny leak where the outlet hose exits the pump. I thought it would be foolproof, even for me!
The (plastic) pump outlet, which is about an inch long, has a lip on it, at the edge (exit). There were two hose clips, which I re-installed as previous - but I note that there is not enough room on the outlet for the two hose clips to fit behind the lip. So I imagine the second hose clip is sitting ON the lip, which may not be the best way to get a watertight seal (?).
Would it be better to have one hose clip either side of the lip?
Any other advice? Thanks

 

[sailaboutvic]

Exit on the outlet by the joke valve ?
You should be able to get slim clips ,
Or move the pipe out a bit so you can get one clip partly on and the second clip behind the lip .
You could also try just using one clip , although you should have two as it's below water level.

 

[Plum]

Help please. Just replaced pump on jabsco toilet (complete pump for manual toilet, using existing hoses). All went well - except now I have a tiny leak where the outlet hose exits the pump. I thought it would be foolproof, even for me!
The (plastic) pump outlet, which is about an inch long, has a lip on it, at the edge (exit). There were two hose clips, which I re-installed as previous - but I note that there is not enough room on the outlet for the two hose clips to fit behind the lip. So I imagine the second hose clip is sitting ON the lip, which may not be the best way to get a watertight seal (?).
Would it be better to have one hose clip either side of the lip?
Any other advice? Thanks

I do not beleive you need two clips here, providing the single one is a good quality one. As you say, the spigot is not long enough for two wide clips. The problem i have had is that the old hose gets permanently deformed over the lip/barb on the short spiggot and if that deformation does not align perfectly on refitting it is difficult to reseal. This cold weather is making it difficult if you are using pvc hose. Try just one clip but otherwise you may have to fit new hose.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[PaulRainbow]

If the toilet has been fitted correctly (If the toilet is below the waterline it should have a vented loop) there is no need to double clip the pipe at the outlet.

 

[vyv_cox]

My personal view is that the need for double clipping is an invention of hose clip manufacturers. There is not a single fitting on my boat that has double clips. When removing hoses after a while the problem is getting them off, clearly indicating that there is no way they are going to fall off on their own.

I find that when replacing fittings but retaining the old hose that the plastic of the hose has hardened and is reluctant to shape itself to the new location. Warming up the end of the hose with a hot air gun restores its plasticity and it will usually conform once the hose clip is tightened.

 

[RichardS]

My personal view is that the need for double clipping is an invention of hose clip manufacturers. There is not a single fitting on my boat that has double clips. When removing hoses after a while the problem is getting them off, clearly indicating that there is no way they are going to fall off on their own.

I find that when replacing fittings but retaining the old hose that the plastic of the hose has hardened and is reluctant to shape itself to the new location. Warming up the end of the hose with a hot air gun restores its plasticity and it will usually conform once the hose clip is tightened.

+1

I don't have any double clips anywhere on my boat apart from on the flexible fuel hoses. I did have a problem with a small leak on one toilet pump which, when I looked closely, was a tiny hole in the white plastic PVC sanitary hose. I decided that hard plastic hose is unsuitable for a boat so replaced all my hoses with the the "proper" grey rubbery stuff from ASAP. More expensive to buy but a dream to work with and seals without even the single clip .... although they are on for safety, of course.

Richard

 

[lpdsn]

Warming up the end of the hose with a hot air gun restores its plasticity and it will usually conform once the hose clip is tightened.

An alternative to a heat gun is to soak the end in freshly boiled water. I use a mug with a broken handle for the soaking, but the bottom half of a 2l soft drink bottle works well too. I do it for new toilet hose too as it always seems to harder to get a good seal with the special toilet hose.

Edit: PS I almost always use double clips. I put them so that they don't tighten in the same direction (badly worded but hopefully you know what I mean).

 

[prv]

If the toilet has been fitted correctly (If the toilet is below the waterline it should have a vented loop) there is no need to double clip the pipe at the outlet.

+1

If you were to take it off (these things don't just fall off) then all that would come out is the small amount of water sitting in the uphill side of the pipe.

Pete

 

[vyv_cox]

I put them so that they don't tighten in the same direction (badly worded but hopefully you know what I mean).

I have used this technique when 1.5 inch toilet hose steadfastly refuses to seal against the toilet outlet. Reverse one hose clip relative to the other and locate the tightening screws diametrically opposite each other. Sometimes works

 

[Norman_E]

Use a single one of these wider clamps. http://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/HoseClip_Mikalor_Supra-W4.html Measure the outside diameter of the hose and use the smallest Mikalor clamp that will go on. For thick walled 38mm toilet hose the 43-47mm clamp is correct. The problem with the worm drive clamps is that they have a wide range and the curved bit under the worm is often the wrong radius to give a good seal.

I consider this type of clamp far better than the worm drive type, and have never known one to fail, but have found cheap "stainless" jubilee clips with parts that failed due to rust.

 

[Sandyman]

Use a single one of these wider clamps. http://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/HoseClip_Mikalor_Supra-W4.html Measure the outside diameter of the hose and use the smallest Mikalor clamp that will go on. For thick walled 38mm toilet hose the 43-47mm clamp is correct. The problem with the worm drive clamps is that they have a wide range and the curved bit under the worm is often the wrong radius to give a good seal.

I consider this type of clamp far better than the worm drive type, and have never known one to fail, but have found cheap "stainless" jubilee clips with parts that failed due to rust.

Was about to post a reply which would have said exactly the same. Recetly replaced all jubilee clips with this type of Inox (SS) clamps. Cost little more than the price of a jubilee clip of the same size here in Portugal.

 

[Javelin]

I usually use a hot air gun on the pipe for a minute or two so it becomes a lot more malleable and on the end I tighten the clip whilst the pipe is still warm.
This tends to mold the pipe to the fitting and the clip bites in better.

If on the boat away from power then dipping the pipe into a bucket of hot water, or blocking one end and pouring hot water into the pipe has the same effect.

I generally double clip as its accepted as normal practice and most of our customers expect it but if there is no room don't do it.

 

[NormanS]

Help please. Just replaced pump on jabsco toilet (complete pump for manual toilet, using existing hoses). All went well - except now I have a tiny leak where the outlet hose exits the pump. I thought it would be foolproof, even for me!
The (plastic) pump outlet, which is about an inch long, has a lip on it, at the edge (exit). There were two hose clips, which I re-installed as previous - but I note that there is not enough room on the outlet for the two hose clips to fit behind the lip. So I imagine the second hose clip is sitting ON the lip, which may not be the best way to get a watertight seal (?).
Would it be better to have one hose clip either side of the lip?
Any other advice? Thanks

If I have this correctly, the hose in question is the small hose from the top of the pump which feeds water to flush the bowl. There is little or no pressure on this, and if I remember correctly, my hose has no clip on it there, and doesn't leak.

I would only put, at most, one clip on it, and certainly not one on or beyond the lip. I suspect that your hose has been deformed by the hose clips.

 

[Yngmar]

My personal view is that the need for double clipping is an invention of hose clip manufacturers. There is not a single fitting on my boat that has double clips. When removing hoses after a while the problem is getting them off, clearly indicating that there is no way they are going to fall off on their own.

I find that when replacing fittings but retaining the old hose that the plastic of the hose has hardened and is reluctant to shape itself to the new location. Warming up the end of the hose with a hot air gun restores its plasticity and it will usually conform once the hose clip is tightened.

While I usually find myself nodding along to your posts, I must vehemently protest this one! I have two separate stories to offer about this.

Firstly, my own boat. Built in 2001, with double clips on all below-waterline plumbing (I suspect because the RCD demands this). Alas, they all were stainless bands with electroplated worm screws. I replaced them all (there are a surprising amount on the boat - I still occasionally find a few that I'd missed) with good quality all-stainless clamps from Mikalor. They're not that expensive if you buy them in bulk online instead of one by one at the chandlery. The original worm screws had gone various degrees of rusty, some only surface rust, others that had suffered exposure to saltwater (in the bilges, engine room and toilet bits) had corroded severely. Many of them severely enough that I had to cut the bands with a Dremel because the bolts just snapped off even after soaking in leggo ("let go") spray. Two of them had already failed and the bands were found flopping around the hose loosely. While the white satanic, err, sanitation hose will usually not come off a hosebarb on its own, some of my plumbing (sink drains, engine raw water) was done with much more reasonable to use clear, steel-spiral reinforced hose. That hose will readily pop off the barb with minor twisting when the hoseclips are released - delightful when you need to take it off. The only reason it did not pop off and sink the boat was the other hoseclip.

Secondly! A new neighbour has recently arrived on a voluminous powerboat. He's new to boating and learning rapidly, much like I did when I bought mine. One afternoon he asked me if I knew anything about plumbing, because some hose was leaking and he wasn't sure if it was ok to leave the boat for a week like that. I offered to have a look - he's sharing a finger with me - don't need him dragging me down! ;-) The leak was at a joint where some "sanitizer" gubbins had been spliced into a piece of white sanitation hose on the toilet intake, with only single clips on it. I've located and shut the corresponding seacock, which sorted the problem for now, and pointed out that things below the waterline should be double-clipped (something my surveyor and therefore my insurance had insisted on as well).

The following weekend he investigated and told me what he'd found - the plastic T-fitting spliced into the hose (see here for original) was cracked at the end (where the barbed bit is), and since someone had slid just enough hose over it for a single clip (the fitting was plenty long for more), this clip no longer had anything to compress against and the hose was barely hanging on to the lip of the barb (yes it was white sanitation hose) - and probably slipping off a bit more every time the toilet pump was used, with water already leaking out. Admittedly not a great install, but a second clip would've forced the installer to slide on more hose and clamped before the crack. Had the hose slipped off the last few millimeters, the boat would've surely sank at the pontoon and I would've had to climb out at night to cut its mooring lines off :hororr:

The crack may well have been caused by overtightening the clamp - another important thing often ignored.

Finally, a pair of (I think) good articles about the subject with photos I suspect you might enjoy:

http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/hose-clamps-part-i-design-and-selection/
http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/hose-clamps-part-ii-installation-and-use/

 

[RichardS]

While I usually find myself nodding along to your posts, I must vehemently protest this one! I have two separate stories to offer about this.

But surely no-one would suggest that using two clips means that proper routine maintenance is no longer necessary?

One or two clips .... all boat fittings and particularly those immersed in seawater should be checked at least once a year as part of general maintenance.

The USA equivalent to the RCD specifies single clipping apart from fuel hoses.

Richard

 

[Venus1]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I will apply all of the advice (replacing the hose as a last resort, only if the other measures don't do the trick).
(NormanS, I was referring to the large diameter exit at the bottom of the pump.)

 

[macd]

Use a single one of these wider clamps. http://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/HoseClip_Mikalor_Supra-W4.html Measure the outside diameter of the hose and use the smallest Mikalor clamp that will go on. For thick walled 38mm toilet hose the 43-47mm clamp is correct. The problem with the worm drive clamps is that they have a wide range and the curved bit under the worm is often the wrong radius to give a good seal.

Ditto with fuel hose clamps, for which the type linked here are superior to worm-drive:
http://www.advancedfluidsolutions.co.uk/aba-stainless-steel-mini-fuel-hose-clips-235-c.asp

 

[Zing]

My personal view is that the need for double clipping is an invention of hose clip manufacturers. There is not a single fitting on my boat that has double clips. When removing hoses after a while the problem is getting them off, clearly indicating that there is no way they are going to fall off on their own.

Sorry, I don't agree. I work with the assumptions that:

1. All hose clips fail eventually.
2. I am not clever enough to spot an imminent failure at every occasion to prevent the failure
3. Some hoses and fittings need hose clips to make them safe from wiggling off or being knocked off.
4. The probability of two hose clips failing at the same time is virtually zero.

Given the above, to not have two hose clips is the same as saying that sooner or later I will have a flood from a failed hose clip.

And why take the admittedly small chance when the consequences are so grim? It isn't money as they cost buttons.

 

[vyv_cox]

Sorry, I don't agree. I work with the assumptions that:

1. All hose clips fail eventually.
2. I am not clever enough to spot an imminent failure at every occasion to prevent the failure
3. Some hoses and fittings need hose clips to make them safe from wiggling off or beink knocked off.
4. The probability of two hose clips failing at the same time is virtually zero.

Given the above, to not have two hose clips is the same as saying that sooner or later I will have a flood from a failed hose clip.

And why take the admittedly small chance when the consequences are so grim? It isn't money as they cost buttons.

I refer you to the automotive industry. Every water cooled car has many hose clips throuout its cooling system. Call it ten? Although I suspect it is more. How many cars in the world? Millions? A billion? How many of those hose clips are doubled? None. How many burst off, fall off, fail in normal use? Very few indeed. What pressures are they sealing? In general, a lot more than the head of seawater in a boat.

Every example given by those who disagree with my opinion refers to poorly maintained, inappropriate or otherwise unsatisfactory installations. I have never said that your single hose clip would be OK if you never check it but a single one is perfectly adequate in good condition.

 

[Yngmar]

I refer you to the automotive industry. Every water cooled car has many hose clips throuout its cooling system. Call it ten? Although I suspect it is more. How many cars in the world? Millions? A billion? How many of those hose clips are doubled? None. How many burst off, fall off, fail in normal use? Very few indeed. What pressures are they sealing? In general, a lot more than the head of seawater in a boat.

Every example given by those who disagree with my opinion refers to poorly maintained, inappropriate or otherwise unsatisfactory installations. I have never said that your single hose clip would be OK if you never check it but a single one is perfectly adequate in good condition.

The difference is that if a hoseclip on a car fails, it spills its coolant on the motorway, a warning light flashes and you'll be late for tea with auntie Emma. Bit annoying. If it fails on a boat, at best it'll sink at the pontoon and nobody gets hurt. At worst, people die. Both rather worse situations. All because someone tried to save €1.50 and a few minutes work. People spend a lot more time and money on EPIRBs, liferafts and other emergency kit, so why skimp on something so cheap and easy to do.

My boat was indeed poorly maintained when I bought it, but that wasn't anybody's fault - the owner had fallen severely ill and was busy fighting for his life, and whichever relative volunteered to occasionally look after it probably didn't have the time or skills to even know what to look for. I'd still rather not have it sink if I'm ever found in that situation (knock on wood). But it's your boat and your €1.50 - my advice remains to go for the double clips on anything that could sink the boat :encouragement: