A cautionary tale for Christmas

[TSB240]

I feel for you in your predicament.

I have a good friend who has been through a similar scenario with an imported yacht which had a serious manufacturing defect on its keel.

The agents had gone bump however the manufacturers stepped in and replaced the keel with a new one..

Central to your dispute is whether the delamination is due to your original grounding and possibly due to inadequte support of the hull in storage.

I appreciate your view, your photos and the views of the surveyors but this is contrary to the agents and presumably manufacturer.

They have offered to repair your boat and help you with the repair costs...

If the damage is as they say due to your grounding then I would have sent the estimate to the insurance company.

Any good marine insurance company will appoint an assessor/surveyor to inspect and approve the repairs at which time they will inevitably uncover the true cause of failure.(especially if given a nod or a wink)

They would also want the repairs to be of a standard that means that the craft meets the required construction standards.
If the repairs cannot be guarantee to that level then a replacement hull would be required...

However you will be liable to "betterment" payment as you will be the owner of a newer boat.

I have never believed lawyers ever repaired anything in my life.. They are only second in low life to accountants and amoebas.

Having upset all accountants, lawyers and amoebas....

Merry Christmas everybody..

 

[DogWatch]

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that the yacht concerned is a HUZAR from EM YACHTS of Poland, and the UK agent concerned is WITTEY MARINE.

Without those names being mentioned, Google would never index the topic. Once Google has indexed those names it could impact those considering dealing with Huzar/EM Yachts and/or Wittey Marine.

The decision not to name was deliberate, since I didn't want to make the issue look too personal. However, I see you have now done so, which saves me the trouble [many thanks!].

Joker when you reply you should quote, even google takes more notice when stuff is quoted.

 

[Joker]

Originally Posted by Twister_Ken View Post
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that the yacht concerned is a HUZAR from EM YACHTS of Poland, and the UK agent concerned is WITTEY MARINE.

Without those names being mentioned, Google would never index the topic. Once Google has indexed those names it could impact those considering dealing with Huzar/EM Yachts and/or Wittey Marine.

Should I quote the quotes?

Insurance company sent a surveyor along, who said 'fault in manufacture, nothing to do with us'.

I know what Wittey Marine are saying about the grounding/storage and all the rest. There is one very big snag. They have never even seen the boat, ever, and all the survey reports flatly contradict their versions of events. I have not commented on Mr Wittey's statement, but let me put it another way: I would like to see him back his assertions up with any form of evidence.

If I had have pushed them to court, which would have been the next step, there was always the possibility that they would have folded and walked away. I would have spent more even more money to no effect.

 

[dt4134]

If the damage is as they say due to your grounding then I would have sent the estimate to the insurance company.

Any good marine insurance company will appoint an assessor/surveyor to inspect and approve the repairs at which time they will inevitably uncover the true cause of failure.(especially if given a nod or a wink)

Might be an idea to play the insurance company off against the builder/agent. But having seen what happened with a friend's insurance claim I wouldn't necessarily hold out too much hope for the standard of the insurance company's surveyor or the clout of his qualifications.

 

[Chrissie]

The agent and manufacturers blame a grounding, which wasnt even a bad one, and the damage was to the rudder anyway, without even seeing the boat.

As there are no signs of adhesive to the areas where the delamination occured, I would say it was an open and shut case, and getting compensation towards the repairs should have been decided by the courts but what can you do when the agent just needs to say sue me and I will declare myself bankrupt and you will get nothing anyway.

 

[Chrissie]

Whoops accidently pressed enter before my message was finished.

What I find a shame is that after you have achieved so much sailing wise, single handed to the Azores in an elderly Virgo Voyager, all over the Baltic single handed etc. You buy your first new boat that was supposed to last you to the end of your days, and get a real dud.

The agent could get his money back from the manufacturer, but he would have to pay out of his pocket (or his insurance) to repay the profit he made on the boat, but he would prefer to see you loose out than bother trying to get recourse from the manufacturer.

Perhaps he doesnt want to risk his relationship with Salona, but if that is the case, It would show him up as very disreputable.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Presumably he now makes more money from selling Salona than Huzar.

Any one got a contact at Salona? Might be worth bringing this story to their attention.

 

[emnick]

Job Done

Well, with nearly 2.5k views on this I think you have managed to sort out their boat show.

Good luck with it. I think it is wise not to throw good money after bad, but it hurts!

Have you checked companies house to see if they are in profit or if they have filed accounts yet?

I would email them a link to this post. I would perhaps spend a week at the show giving your opinion about their boats to thier potential customers.

 

[Seajet]

Starter boats

Joker, prv, Ubergeekian,

I too bemoan the lack of decent starter boats as of yesteryear, and probably the sort of thing we all grew up with.

It could be said I've kept to mine ! I have had my Anderson 22 lift keeler for the most part of the last 32 years; I sold her in the 1980's and tried a Carter 30, had 3 seasons with that and was keen to buy my Anderson back.

It's not purely a matter of finance either; I simply don't think carting around a lot of furniture and equipment in a boat which is less fun to sail is what a weekend and occasional holiday cruiser is all about.

I can get my own mast up & down, an engine change doesn't take the sort of logistics employed on the Ark Royal, she's fast and responsive, and as seaworthy as anything used in coastal / cross channel sailing, while very comfortable for two, or two plus kids, 4 real adult sized berths.

I can sit on my own mooring and peer out of the forehatch at all the wildlife around, upright when the tide is out and watching as it returns - I'm no more limited to tidal access to the Harbour entrance than most boats in surrounding marinas.

I have long predicted that the mad ( to me ) increase in boat size - as someone commented 'a starter boat now is 40', cannot continue and the trend will reverse.

Probably not to as small as 22', which is a shame; I always said that 22' is too big to learn on, there's a marked difference between those who learned properly on dinghies ( not just a couple of years in a Mirror ) and those who jumped straight onto something with wheel steering and a turbo-diesel Plan B.

However, when I and a friend seriously investigated putting the Anderson 22 back into production, it soon became apparent that as Ubergeekian says, she would cost as much as say a secondhand Contessa 32.

True the Contessa in question would be long in the tooth and the running costs astronomical compared to an Anderson or similar, and also as said people do seem to pay for new boats, but up to now it's been a very limited market.

At one end one can buy a larger fully fitted boat - whose penalties frankly only become apparent later - and at the other extreme there are the 'tupperware' jobs from Poland etc which are probably quite alright if treated as transitory training.

In the case of the Anderson she may have found the ideal, an existing low volume builder who can add her to his range, but in the 22-28' size range I think will become in demand, probably a design with at least lift / twin keel options, there are very few designs around under 30 years old.

I can't help thinking that in times when the UK has thrown in the towel on defence, schools, hospitals, care homes etc, and even the USA is thinking of binning huge industrial & defence projects like the F-35 fighter, the days of a row of badly operated large yachts blasting out of incredibly expensive marinas on Saturday mornings must be on the decline.

Obviously I'm biased, I don't think of myself as one of the 'hair shirt brigade' at all and have every comfort and bit of kit I fancy, but I can't help thinking a return to a time when sailing is FUN rather than competing to throw money at people must be good for the pastime over all ?

( Tin Hat on... )

 

[Bajansailor]

Seajet, no need for your tin hat - I am sure that many on here (myself included) will be in agreement with your thoughts above.

For the OP - I have (and many others probably have as well) sent a link to this thread to Wittey Marine - sales@witteymarine.com
And to E M Yachts - info@em-yachts.com
Inviting them to respond with their side of the story.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Seajet, no need for your tin hat - I am sure that many on here (myself included) will be in agreement with your thoughts above.

For the OP - I have (and many others probably have as well) sent a link to this thread to Wittey Marine - sales@witteymarine.com
And to E M Yachts - info@em-yachts.com
Inviting them to respond with their side of the story.

I trust you also mentioned to them how well this forum performs in Google searches. This thread comes up on page one when searching the internet for Huzar Yachts.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

There is a simple solution to this problem.

Buy a British boat!

It's more fun anyway.

I dont think buying British is the whole answer. Even if you buy a British boat you are still likely to be buying it from a dealer who may still be a one man band working from his spare bedroom and even if you think you may be buying direct from a manufacturer, you are still likely to be buying from the manufacturer's sales company which will have no assets and can easily be liquidated. One of the main reasons that manufacturers work through dealers and sales companies is to keep themselves one step beyond litigation arising from customers unhappy with their products.
IMHO the only way to avoid the unfortunate tale of the Huzar 30 is to buy a boat that already physically exists such that it can be surveyed prior to purchase and you can take posession of it the second your money hits the dealer's account. Obviously this is also an argument for buying secondhand too.
This story illustrates the 'elephant in the room' aspect of boat buying which nobody in the boat industry wants to talk about. Buyers are giving very large sums of money to very small companies and it is that combination of large amounts of money at risk with small companies that is almost unique to the boat buying industry. When things go wrong in the buying process, those very small companies are very likely not have sufficient assets to make it worthwile suing them if the buyer suffers a loss and all the trading standards officers, consumer laws and so called watertight contracts in the world are not worth a light

 

[Joker]

Thank you all very much for your kind words and support. But as Deleted User puts it:

... that combination of large amounts of money at risk with small companies that is almost unique to the boat buying industry. When things go wrong in the buying process, those very small companies are very likely not have sufficient assets to make it worthwhile suing them if the buyer suffers a loss and all the trading standards officers, consumer laws and so called watertight contracts in the world are not worth a light.

I am having the boat brought from Germany in the New Year [when the weather permits!] and repaired in Gosport.

I don't know how much Mr Wittey has spent in legal fees, although I can make some guess, given what I've spent. Our combined legal fees probably amount to more than the cost of the repair. And to what end? I'm out of pocket, he's out of pocket, and the reputation of his business has suffered.

 

[Malo37]

I would forget the repair and take them to court for a total refund plus costs. It is unlikely that a repair will be 100% and you will never be able to sell the boat on for anything other than a give-away price.

 

[Joker]

No point taking them to court if they haven't got any money!

 

[Chrissie]

I was supprised to hear how they they might go broke if they are taken to court to persuade them to pay toward the repair costs, this extract from their website would suggest otherwise, perhaps its worth going back to them and asking again, perhaps at the boatshow.

"Wittey Marine is a vibrant family run business working with large international boatyards. Over the years we have built a solid team around us to ensure we can provide a full range of services both pre and post sales and we are committed to offering service with smile.
Our aim is to provide the very best quality craft at affordable prices tailored to each customer’s specific requirements.

We do not offer “off the shelf” ranges because we believe owning a boat is a unique and special experience and so, we work closely with each customer to ensure every detail of their new boat conforms to their particular wish list."

 

[BlueChip]

No point taking them to court if they haven't got any money!

Mr Wittey is a very wealthy man, I have been to his premises in Buckinhamshore and saw his huge house and a large collection of vintage motorcycles in a modern barn; however I've no doubt his busines is limited by guarantee but he must have business liability insurance.

I have PM'd you, I strongly recomend that you follow up the info I give you.