Joker
Active member
Snag is that even if I get any sort of judgement, it's still got to be enforced. What's stopping them folding up and walking away into the sunset?
A cautionary tale for Christmas
- Thread starter Joker
- Start date
Snag is that even if I get any sort of judgement, it's still got to be enforced. What's stopping them folding up and walking away into the sunset?
sailorman
Well-known member
nothing at all except perhaps a charge on the directors if thats possible
SolentBoat
New member
Hmm. A couple of years back, I was tossing up between a British boat and a Polish boat. I settled on the much cheaper Polish boat and was astonished to see the UK company subsequently go belly up. Had I bought British, I'd have lost a pile of wonga.
Joker
Active member
And I bought Polish, and lost a lot of wonga (£35000?)
fastjedi
Member
Nope! ... That's not a lot of wonga compared to Buying British and ending up with nothing (just trying to make you feel better) Whatever you decide, don't try to gamble your way out of it and make things even worse. I'd recommend the fastest, lowest risk route to drawing a line under the situation ... and then move on before it takes you down with it.
Joker
Active member
I've paid off the lawyer - indeed, I wouldn't be posting here if I hadn't. I'm making arrangements to have it brought back and repaired in Gosport - at my own expense, needless to say. Biggest problem is the ice and snow in Germany!
Mr Wittey is still selling boats - say hello to him as you pass the Salona stand at the LBS.
Mr Wittey is still selling boats - say hello to him as you pass the Salona stand at the LBS.
colingr
Active member
I think the quote should be Pioneers end up with arrows in their front and bullets in their backs.
The meaning's the same.
sailorman
Well-known member
Some lost much much more than you in the Sadler / Rampart swindle ( ie everything )
r_h
Active member
Whatever the boat builder, I've seen enough problems with new boats to recommend every buyer to have a full independent survey before taking delivery.
pvb
Well-known member
I think I'd have arranged for "the boys" to pay him a friendly visit before now....
Ubergeekian
Active member
One pays through the nose for it. Seen the latest PBO? The new boat test is a Storm 22, with prices from £26,666. Suggested alternative are the S-700 (from £27,950), Bénéteau First 21.7 (from £24,000) and Jeanneau Sun 2000 (from £16,110). Now clearly there is a market for these things, because people buy 'em ... but for the same as the Storm 22 you could buy two absolutely perfect Centaurs ... or a Moody 33 or a Rival 34 or a Moody 29 or a Fisher 25 or a Nicholson 345 or (and that's just the first few that turn up with a £26,000 - £27,000 search on ybw.com broker sales.
If you really want something around 21 feet, then a good second hand Jouster / Corribee / Warwick / Leisure 21 / Anderson 22 / Hunter 19 / (cont p94) will cost around 15% of the Storm 22 and a completely overhauled one perhaps 50%.
Ubergeekian
Active member
I'm mildly surprised. If you buys a glider from abroad - most glider manufacturers are in Poland or Germany - then you most emphatically do buy from the builder, not from the agent. The agents only act as, erm, agents, not as retailers.
Deepest sympathies for your situation, by the way. It doesn't reflect at all well on either builder or agent.
RichardS
N/A
Not a happy experience - my sympathies - but it makes me wonder how these cored hulls are produced. I always assumed that self-expanding polyurethane foam or similar was used - a bit like the expanding foam used for injected cavity wall insulation. I would have thought that this was self-adhesive so that as it expands between the braced inner and outer shells it sticks to both.
However, since my boat is balsa cored and this must presumably be done in a different way as it doesn't expand, then I guess that the foam is also glued in during construction like balsa?
Richard
However, since my boat is balsa cored and this must presumably be done in a different way as it doesn't expand, then I guess that the foam is also glued in during construction like balsa?
Richard
snowleopard
Active member
Some boats, particularly small ones, were in the past foam filled by pouring foam-in-place mixture between two mouldings. These are the sort that, years later, are ten times their original weight because the foam has absorbed water through a small leak. That technique is still in use in 'unsinkable' boats but hopefully with a better type of foam.
A properly constructed modern boat has its foam or balsa core pressed into the wet resin of the outer laminate, usually by a vacuum bag technique. The inner skin is then applied to the inside of the foam once the first moulding is cured. If the vacuum bag has been poorly applied you can fail to get a bond as is clearly seen in the OP pictures. Sandwich construction with an incompletely bonded core has a small fraction of the rigidity of a proper job.
Joker
Active member
The builders (EM Yachts) are blaming the problem on a grounding incident three years ago. The survey reports say otherwise, but in EM Yacht's opinion, these surveyors are obviously 'insufficiently qualified'. Needless to say, Wittey Marine are clinging to the same excuse.
dt4134
New member
It's far more sophisticated than cavity wall insulation. The foam cores come in sheets or blocks. There's a range of specifications for the foam, so a competent designer will specify the type of foam to be used in the construction. There's apparently even a spec for foam that will withstand 2,000psi and is used in the cored hulls of submarines.
I guess you could say the foam is just glued in, but it has to be done properly. I don't know how to do it properly but I know people who do. I think they use terms like bonding rather than glueing in. I've been helping a friend who is working on a foam cored hull and I can assure you it doesn't look like the pictures of Joker's boat. It would take an angle grinder to take the layer of glass off the foam.
As I said in my earlier post, I do not believe that it is (b)leading edge technology these days.
dt4134
New member
IIRC one or more of the owners of EM Yachts is an academic. If it goes to court you might have to trump him with an expert witness of your own from Southampton.
From what you say the other side have spent a fortune on lawyers too. You just have to convince them it is cheaper to fix the problem than fight you. The mark of a firm is how well they deal with a problem.
Another question is whether you're the only one with this sort of problem. Surely if they couldn't get the building techniques & quality control right on your boat then some others must have faults too. Of course if too many owners push too hard it might bring down both Wittney Marine & EM Yachts, but if you start getting together an owners assoc you might have enough clout to get an out of court settlement for yourself.
Joker
Active member
Obviously I don't know how much Wittey Marine have spent on legal fees, but it must be substantial - at least, judging from mine! Our combined legal + survey fees must now be more than the cost of the repairs - in other words, if Mr Wittey had agreed to go 50:50 on the repairs at the outset, he'd have saved money.
Not enough of them around for an owner's association, I'm afraid. I don't think Wittey sold many in the UK.
Of course, mine might just be a one off, but that's no great consolation.
snowleopard
Active member
I suspect the reason they have thrown all that money at lawyers is that they fear an avalanche of claims from other customers which would surely put them out of business.
The top photo in the OP's link is unequivocal - the initial bonding of foam to laminate was not done properly. No one with any knowledge of the techniques would entertain the idea that it was caused by any form of impact. They are hoping the claimant will give up rather than risk even more legal fees even though his case is undeniable.
The top photo in the OP's link is unequivocal - the initial bonding of foam to laminate was not done properly. No one with any knowledge of the techniques would entertain the idea that it was caused by any form of impact. They are hoping the claimant will give up rather than risk even more legal fees even though his case is undeniable.
Joker
Active member
Well, in one sense they've succeeded! On the other hand, since I've dropped legal action, I can now publicise the matter was widely as I want. If they had any sense, they'd have paid up to keep me quiet.
