A Capable Family Cruiser

[BobnLesley]

Why is it that whatever size of boat, it always seems just about the right size for two?

Because all boats <60' comfortably accommodate 2 for sleeping, 4 for dinner and 6 for drinks. That said, we once hosted drinks for 14 on a twenty seven footer with only one falling overboard and she was so p****d she'd likely have fallen whatever the number

 

[mjcoon]

When we bought our new 34 in 2000, for the first five weeks we shared it with five visiting adult couples. It seemed to go alright but we were obviously doing something wrong.

Errm, how many were bunking up together? ;-)

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I am sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. There is nothing in dinghy sailing that helps in berthing a 40'cruiser in a marina. As for berthing under sail following engine failure - how often will you ever need that skill? and who says it can only be acquired through previous experience in small boats.

Sounds like you want to restrict sailing to those who can join your "club" only if they abide by your "rules" and do things your way.

Sad.

Not at all. But you seem overly anxious to avoid facing the fact that sailing dinghys and dayboats is going to make you more attentive to the wind and it’s effects on your boat. There’s no resorting to the iron genoa when things get tough, whether that’s 30kn or 3kn. Both tough, in different ways. Those who’ve done their rather damp apprenticeship are, in my experience, better at that. Any blithering idiot can sail in 12kn. When it’s light and shite, the best sailors shine, others start their engines.

 

[Sea Change]

Because all boats <60' comfortably accommodate 2 for sleeping, 4 for dinner and 6 for drinks. That said, we once hosted drinks for 14 on a twenty seven footer with only one falling overboard and she was so p****d she'd likely have fallen whatever the number

You beat our record, but only just.
We had thirteen aboard our Vega for dinner and drinks. Then a whole bunch of them went to the cockpit for a smoke, and the water started flooding up the cockpit drains.

 

[Sea Change]

Not at all. But you seem overly anxious to avoid facing the fact that sailing dinghys and dayboats is going to make you more attentive to the wind and it’s effects on your boat. There’s no resorting to the iron genoa when things get tough, whether that’s 30kn or 3kn. Both tough, in different ways. Those who’ve done their rather damp apprenticeship are, in my experience, better at that. Any blithering idiot can sail in 12kn. When it’s light and shite, the best sailors shine, others start their engines.

We find most people start their engines because they're in a hurry.
We were recently on passage in company with some larger and higher performance boats, some of which had an array of lightwind sails, and the skills to use them. We were the only boat to turn our engine off at any point. They thought we were a bit mad bumbling along at under 4kt.

 

[obmij]

There is some overlap but quite different skillsets.

Harbour / marina manoeuvring requires far less planning in a small boat and doesn't really prepare you for the rigours of manoeuvring a large heavy boat with a ton of inertia in unfavourable conditions - in fact I found I developed serious skill fade / lazyness when I bought a small boat. Errors had no consequence as I could correct them physically, distances for throwing easily manageable, bouys could be picked up without a thought. A big boat you have to get it right first time if you do not want to trouble you insurance company.

Sail and line handling has potential for serious consequences on a bigger boat and I'm not sure that knocking around in a small cruiser prepares you for that.

Sailing wise - I don't know really. I'm not a good sailor - although I'm competent enough. Small boat or big I generally put the autopilot on and trim to that. I would only really take the helm when mooring or if conditions were such that the autopilot struggled to cope.

I don't think I would have benefitted from more dinghy sailing tbh other than for its own sake & it never really got me that excited anyway.

Each to their own though. There are lots of reasons people like sailing / boating

 

[johnalison]

Errm, how many were bunking up together? ;-)

I may have overestimated the level of comprehension of my audience. They came one week at a time and we got a free meal ashore from each pair.

 

[mjcoon]

I may have overestimated the level of comprehension of my audience. They came one week at a time and we got a free meal ashore from each pair.

I may have overestimated the significance of the fives; just the size of the sample, not the loading...

 

[boomerangben]

I think it has more to who you had teaching you and in what scenario that matters. And time spent doing it. I learned a lot crewing on cruisers on the Broads, I learned a lot sailing Wayfarers with my dad, I learned a lot sailing with my dad on an E boat, Hunter 28 and my current boat. Dinghy’s don’t tend to have things like reefing, but they do teach (because generally they are raced) how to sail by feel whilst planning your next move.

Closed quarter manoeuvres in a big boat is very difficult to learn before owning your own boat. Quite simply owners (quite understandably) don’t want to delegate that responsibility. The first time I did on anything bigger that 30” was on a CS course

 

[xyachtdave]

The first time I did on anything bigger that 30” was on a CS course

30 inches, well that’s a saving on marina fees!

 

[zoidberg]

As for berthing under sail following engine failure - how often will you ever need that skill?

Ordinarily, I would tend to agree with you. You've usually got a firm hold on reality. However....

Sometime or other in the past 60-odd years, I did my share of RYA-style cajoling biggish boats to perform tricks their designers hadn't intended - as did most of us. Then I remembered:

I was persuaded by a friend to lend a hand from time to time on his frayed-at-the-edges Rival 34. Over several years, this included a 'positioning' from Cardiff to Oban via the Wild West of Ireland, on and off moorings and anchor into Port Ellen, Crinan and Oban, through the Dorus Mhor, most of the larger CI harbours, an 'arrival' into the Brest Chateau marina, same thing at Newlyn. All of these and more required the unexpected and frustrating deployment of 'dinghy handling skills' 'cos his ropey old BMC hadn't seen a spanner, screwdriver, impeller or oil filter change since Pontius was a pilot.

I'm not taking sides in this contretemps - merely recalling I was reet glad of John Goode's 'PBO' series of how-to-do-it booklets and a half-remembered recollection in Yachting Monthly of the ancient skill of 'drudging'.

 

[Tranona]

Ordinarily, I would tend to agree with you. You've usually got a firm hold on reality. However....

Sometime or other in the past 60-odd years, I did my share of RYA-style cajoling biggish boats to perform tricks their designers hadn't intended - as did most of us. Then I remembered:

I was persuaded by a friend to lend a hand from time to time on his frayed-at-the-edges Rival 34. Over several years, this included a 'positioning' from Cardiff to Oban via the Wild West of Ireland, on and off moorings and anchor into Port Ellen, Crinan and Oban, through the Dorus Mhor, most of the larger CI harbours, an 'arrival' into the Brest Chateau marina, same thing at Newlyn. All of these and more required the unexpected and frustrating deployment of 'dinghy handling skills' 'cos his ropey old BMC hadn't seen a spanner, screwdriver, impeller or oil filter change since Pontius was a pilot.

I'm not taking sides in this contretemps - merely recalling I was reet glad of John Goode's 'PBO' series of how-to-do-it booklets and a half-remembered recollection in Yachting Monthly of the ancient skill of 'drudging'.

I prefer now to avoid getting into those sort of situations influenced by my early days with my Eventide and its Stuart Turner petrol engine. Almost every situation where an engine was a good idea, it thought otherwise. So I have my fair share of club bore stories of scary moments mainly berthing when the engine dies at the crucial point. Ask my wife how many times she had to leap for the narrow bar with a ball on the end that did for a mooring!. Or the time we picked up a piece of net about 20 miles off Cherbourg. Spent the day being pushed back and forth by the tide but not getting any closer to land. Decided to sail back home only for the main to blow out in the night, So a jury rig that got us 24 hours later into Sandown Bay, only to pick up a string of pots in the shallow water. My crew managed to sail the boat backwards to untangle us and we got into water shallow enough to go over the side and clear the fouled prop. Needless to say the ST then performed perfectly to get us back to Poole only to fail as it throttled back near the mooring which I then picked up under sail. Wrote it up in PBO and the fee paid for the rope cutter. Managed all that and more without ever becoming proficient at sailing a dinghy.

So now I insist on a reliable engine, a rope cutter and a bow thruster to keep control of my wayward GH. Moved her today after relaunching. Not a lot of wind but enough to help blow the bow off to leave the waiting pontoon and then into my tight berth. Just one quick squirt of the bow thruster to bring the bow closer to the finger. No drama and all on my own. Of course if it had been windier I probably would not have done it on my own - doing things safely is about assessing the risks and acting accordingly.

 

[Tranona]

Not at all. But you seem overly anxious to avoid facing the fact that sailing dinghys and dayboats is going to make you more attentive to the wind and it’s effects on your boat. There’s no resorting to the iron genoa when things get tough, whether that’s 30kn or 3kn. Both tough, in different ways. Those who’ve done their rather damp apprenticeship are, in my experience, better at that. Any blithering idiot can sail in 12kn. When it’s light and shite, the best sailors shine, others start their engines.

It is NOT a fact - it is just a myth that people put about to try and justify the way they went about things. See my post in reply to Zoidberg.

You can learn all that only sailing bigger boats. The wind is the same. An unballasted dinghy requires a different technique to deal with the wind and waves. Of course some is transferrable to bigger cruising boat, but most is not - particularly about berthing stern to a Greek village quay in a gusty 20 knot crosswind. Just nonsense to say that people who learned in that way are inherently better in tough conditions. There is nothing I learned (or otherwise!) sailing my Osprey for 2 seasons that was of any use to me sailing cruisers in the subsequent 40 years. Anyway the proportion of ones sailing time that is spent in "shite" conditions is tiny if you organise your sailing properly and even then if you are prepared properly you can manage.

BTW what is so wrong about using the engine when it is appropriate? That is what it is for and in many ways it is the reliable diesel engine that has opened up cruising under sail to a wider audience. My remark earlier about there being no inherent virtue in having a smaller boat it is even more true about those like you who bang on about the superiority of being able to do everything under sail. However even you with your extreme (by cruising standards) boat have a whopping overpowered engine!

 

[LittleSister]

Harbour / marina manoeuvring requires far less planning in a small boat and doesn't really prepare you for the rigours of manoeuvring a large heavy boat with a ton of inertia in unfavourable conditions - in fact I found I developed serious skill fade / lazyness when I bought a small boat. Errors had no consequence as I could correct them physically, distances for throwing easily manageable, bouys could be picked up without a thought. A big boat you have to get it right first time if you do not want to trouble you insurance company.

Funnily enough, I've found the reverse. I agree that if things go really wrong you can stop a smaller boat more easily and likely with less damage, but I generally find the inertia of a larger boat helpful - it carries its way and turns predictably, and if you're stopped it doesn't go scooting off as a result of the smallest gust of wind or eddy of current.

You have generally increased manoeuvrability in a smaller boat - in terms of the boat's ability to start, stop and turn more quickly. On the other hand, a marina will typically direct a small boat to the most inaccessible berth at some far flung tight corner of the marina. Meanwhile, other boats will often not notice you approaching as you're hidden behind the larger boats, and not a few will even if they see you consider you the give way boat purely on relative size, or a misplaced assumption you can stop easily..

A key disadvantage of smaller boats is their tenderness: they tip as you move about, Stand on the side deck in readiness to step on a pontoon and you'll need to hang on as they'll heel significantly, and that will also steer the boat way from its prior path (particularly an issue if you're single-handing). And it's not just heeling that's a problem: stand on the bow and a transom hung outboard will lift out of the water.

You mention it being easier to pick up buoys, which is true, but I also had problems with buoys being too tall, and beating hell out of the bow which wasn't high enough out of the water to avoid them or lift them.

One of my most challenging boats in marinas and other tight spots was a Hurley 22 (long fin). At sea it was a really great boat, really capable and reassuring. Its downfall was the outboard in a well (some had inboard engines). This had the advantages over transom hung outboards of much better weight distribution and keeping the prop underwater, but that prop was behind the rudder, so there was no kicking the boat one way or another with prop wash, i.e. you could only steer when making significant way through the water. The well also meant that, unlike a transom hung outboard it couldn't be turned (a significantly smaller outboard than mine may have been able to be turned a fraction) The outboard's exhaust was out the back of the prop, and this meant that in reverse the prop was thrashing about in froth to little effect, so no stopping the boat with just a blip of astern, and it took a goodly while to attain a speed aftwards where the rudder would have any effect.

I definitely think my experience in small boats (including dinghies)`) has helped me be a better sailor, but I don't think that means that those who've arrived by other routes are necessarily less able. I know that I don't have the understanding of sail shape and trim that serious racing sailors have, and having done most of my skippering single-handed, or with a less experienced partner, or a single neophyte friend, that I have to work at communicating with and managing larger crews.

Each to their own though. There are lots of reasons people like sailing / boating

 

[Bajansailor]

I spent a very pleasant week 35 years ago sailing from Southampton to Poole (it was a bit of a slow pub crawl) with four other lads on a Kingfisher 20, and we all got along fine - my bunk was on the floor in the saloon between the two settee bunks there.
I only had a week off work, so I hopped on the train back to Southampton, and the other 4 carried on to Weymouth before pub crawling their way back to Kemps on the Itchen over the following week.

 

[Blueboatman]

I prefer now to avoid getting into those sort of situations influenced by my early days with my Eventide and its Stuart Turner petrol engine. Almost every situation where an engine was a good idea, it thought otherwise. So I have my fair share of club bore stories of scary moments mainly berthing when the engine dies at the crucial point. Ask my wife how many times she had to leap for the narrow bar with a ball on the end that did for a mooring!. Or the time we picked up a piece of net about 20 miles off Cherbourg. Spent the day being pushed back and forth by the tide but not getting any closer to land. Decided to sail back home only for the main to blow out in the night, So a jury rig that got us 24 hours later into Sandown Bay, only to pick up a string of pots in the shallow water. My crew managed to sail the boat backwards to untangle us and we got into water shallow enough to go over the side and clear the fouled prop. Needless to say the ST then performed perfectly to get us back to Poole only to fail as it throttled back near the mooring which I then picked up under sail. Wrote it up in PBO and the fee paid for the rope cutter. Managed all that and more without ever becoming proficient at sailing a dinghy.

So now I insist on a reliable engine, a rope cutter and a bow thruster to keep control of my wayward GH. Moved her today after relaunching. Not a lot of wind but enough to help blow the bow off to leave the waiting pontoon and then into my tight berth. Just one quick squirt of the bow thruster to bring the bow closer to the finger. No drama and all on my own. Of course if it had been windier I probably would not have done it on my own - doing things safely is about assessing the risks and acting accordingly.

I would have enjoyed reading your account of your ‘channel cruise’ .

Sadly I don’t think that YBW have yet to put up a digital archive that is readily accessible?

I have always written “voyage from and towards” at the start of the log rather than “ voyage to..” Becsuse we never really know do we?

The adventures start when the passage planning plan hits the first obstruction.

I am going to agree to differ on almost every other point that you make though.

Engines and props fail with monotonous regularity. And you yourself have demonstrated that resourcefulness and patience and canny ‘can do’ are a viable alternative to plug and play sailing and calling up the marine breakdown rescue services at the first blown fuse or jammed halyard or clogged filter or net wrap.
I am glad your marriage survived The Learning Curve and the pontoon jumps

 

[newtothis]

I would have enjoyed reading your account of your ‘channel cruise’ .

Sadly I don’t think that YBW have yet to put up a digital archive that is readily accessible?

I have always written “voyage from and towards” at the start of the log rather than “ voyage to..” Becsuse we never really know do we?

The adventures start when the passage planning plan hits the first obstruction.

Mann Tracht, Un Gott Lacht.

 

[Blueboatman]

Mann Tracht, Un Gott Lacht.

I had to translate that
Very good

 

[LittleSister]

The adventures start when the passage planning plan hits the first obstruction.

. . . or the the first Sirens' Call (as I call them, though these ones don't lead to death), i.e. more positive distractions/diversions.

E.g.
'Oh, that little bay/harbour over there looks interesting';
'We're going to X, why don't you sail with us?' say people on neighbouring boat;
cute young Galician gal to Wansworth, pausing there momentarily in the course of his world voyage, 'You seem nice, why don't you stay a little while?',

That to me is one of the attractions of sailing: it's an adventure. It's not an adventure if you know in advance exactly what is going to happen. (There are airlines, package holidays and cruise ships if/when you want that.)

 

[Blueboatman]

. . . or the the first Sirens' Call (as I call them, though these ones don't lead to death), i.e. more positive distractions/diversions.

E.g.
'Oh, that little bay/harbour over there looks interesting';
'We're going to X, why don't you sail with us?' say people on neighbouring boat;
cute young Galician gal to Wansworth, pausing there momentarily in the course of his world voyage, 'You seem nice, why don't you stay a little while?',

That to me is one of the attractions of sailing: it's an adventure. It's not an adventure if you know in advance exactly what is going to happen. (There are airlines, package holidays and cruise ships if/when you want that.)

Been there, did that. All part of the adventure

Sometimes those dastardly cunning sirens wave cold condensation dripping beer bottles at passing sailors too! Damn