A Capable Family Cruiser

[suffolklass]

These days I think 36ft is a decent family size boat for a young family. Easy to handle, enough space to relax. Not too many systems to worry about.

That's exactly the size we've just gone for, for our second family boat (a Sigma 362). The first boat was somewhat smaller at 19'... We crammed in 5 of us - the 3 kids (they were very small at the time) across the v-berth and the two of us in the quarter berths. It always made people laugh at the sailing club as we were one of the bigger families in one of the smallest boats. We loved her and the kids cried buckets when she was sold, but when they grew too big and started kicking each other all night we decided to skip the intermediate steps and go for a big (to us) boat for the long term. I'm sure our new boat will feel small eventually once we have strapping teenagers, but at the moment she feels massive! All about perspective I guess...

 

[Tranona]

All I can say is that I can't see how I could have learned to appreciate the feel of a boat if I had not had small boat experience, and my impression of those who have not done it has not always been positive.

That is perhaps because of your experience - but you only have that. It is a very British (and generational) experience. So those who have gone that route often have difficulty in understanding that there are other routes into sailing that are equally effective. I had minimal dinghy related experience, and what I had was not a good experience. I tried it after I built my first cruising boat partly because it was a way of getting membership of a good club and partly because of pressure from others who were seasoned small boat sailors. In my view it added nothing to my learning of how to handle a bigger boat. Equally some of those who pressurised me were totally out of their depth when they came on my cruiser! The progression route that you advocate I would suggest is due to circumstances rather than being e necessary "apprenticeship". Making a decent size boat go where you want to go and do it efficiently and safely is very different from sailing a dinghy or small keel boat.

As to size, it is only when you get to the mid 30ft that hulls have enough volume to provide the sort of living facilities that people now expect. Of course you can make do with less space, but once you have experienced the space and general capability of a bigger boat it is difficult to imagine going smaller, unless you intend changing your style of sailing. Many of course do this as they get older, but for that big period in middle life when you are able to do enough cruising to justify the cost it is difficult to beat a boat in the 35-40' size range.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Very eloquently put. And bang on, in my own experience, and humblest of humble opinions.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I disagree absolutely that sailing a small boat is any different to sailing a big one. With the exception that sailing a dinghy badly is probably going to get you wet, but sailing a big boat badly just gets you there slower. That is very, very common.

 

[xyachtdave]

Interesting comments here regarding taking your family of 4 away on sub 26 footers for a week.

My wife’s father used to do the same I’m not sure everyone else onboard enjoyed it quite as much as he remembers when’s he recounting the experiences with a smile!

 

[Tranona]

I disagree absolutely that sailing a small boat is any different to sailing a big one. With the exception that sailing a dinghy badly is probably going to get you wet, but sailing a big boat badly just gets you there slower. That is very, very common.

The point that I am making is that you can sail a big boat well without having previously sailed a small boat. Of course they are different experiences and the skills required for sailing a dinghy well - not least keeping it upright are not necessary for bigger boats. You can learn to sail efficiently using the wind and the sails on a big boat just as well as a small one. However on a small boat you don't learn all the other things necessary for cruising like planning, navigation, provisioning the boat, managing the crew and parking the boat etc which are arguably far more important for successful cruising than knowing how to make (or not in my case an Osprey) go well.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The point that I am making is that you can sail a big boat well without having previously sailed a small boat. Of course they are different experiences and the skills required for sailing a dinghy well - not least keeping it upright are not necessary for bigger boats. You can learn to sail efficiently using the wind and the sails on a big boat just as well as a small one. However on a small boat you don't learn all the other things necessary for cruising like planning, navigation, provisioning the boat, managing the crew and parking the boat etc which are arguably far more important for successful cruising than knowing how to make (or not in my case an Osprey) go well.

I’d say the sensitivity required to max out your cruisers performance is best learned in smaller boats. Sure, other parts of cruising are pretty much unique to bigger boats. The actual sailing, IMHO a dinghy sailor will, 9 times out of 10 at least, be more efficient on the helm than someone who has learned their craft on big boats. Whether they are as good at weather routing, and general navigation, well, we all think we’re good at that, clearly some are and some are not, The other parts of cruising have no real relationship to sailing, they are logistics, man management. Though for most of us, sailing 2 up or even solo, there’s precious little of that. Sailing skills themselves, I would always pick a small boat sailor as crew/helm, or do without.

 

[Blueboatman]

I would offer only that you learn a fair old bit when the engine “isn’t available” for whatever reason.
Far better to have learnt on small manageable craft how to do things engineless?

Tides, currents, weather gauge for diurnal changes blah blah and of course the close quarters stuff and getting in or out of rivers and parking and unparking bits too.

And there, right there, having practised all that and honed reflexes racing and mucking about in small boats, these really are your best friends this wil stand you in good stead when the VHF or sea start don’t answer the call in the big boat.

No one is realistically going to take a brand new 36 ft HR out and say ok let’s park it under sail alongside an empty wharf are they? So when are they going to learn a broader set of skills.

Also I would say that from small boats you can judge far better what Is beyond the glossy big boat brochure and what it will or won’t do .
How many 36footers give up in a lumpy headsea and motor bash to windward for 24 hours!

 

[Stemar]

Each to his own, and I'm not going to say that your choice is wrong because it's different from mine. It might be wrong for me, but if it suits you, good luck to you.

I'm in the smaller is better camp, provided there's enough space (define enough!). The Snappy suited us for 18 years, and was well sorted; the only reason we changed her was because Madame was finding the companionway difficult, and some friends wanted us to buy their Catalac. Small spaces have advantages when things get bumpy - we were never out of reach of a handhold, while my friend's 39 footer was cavernous, and you had to plan your movements in rough seas. The other big advantage of our boat was when coming alongside. If Snappy got out of line, she'd shape up with a pull on a line. The 39er would just laugh and pull back

 

[Tranona]

I’d say the sensitivity required to max out your cruisers performance is best learned in smaller boats. Sure, other parts of cruising are pretty much unique to bigger boats. The actual sailing, IMHO a dinghy sailor will, 9 times out of 10 at least, be more efficient on the helm than someone who has learned their craft on big boats. Whether they are as good at weather routing, and general navigation, well, we all think we’re good at that, clearly some are and some are not, The other parts of cruising have no real relationship to sailing, they are logistics, man management. Though for most of us, sailing 2 up or even solo, there’s precious little of that. Sailing skills themselves, I would always pick a small boat sailor as crew/helm, or do without.

As in my reply to johnalison earlier "you would say that" because that is what you have done. Pretty sure there are many like me who would disagree because we have done it differently. As I said that is your experience and view and is no more valid than mine no matter how much you try and big it up.

BTW what is so important about being "good on the helm" when probably 90% of the time cruising on the sort of boat we are talking about is under autopilot or windvane.

 

[johnalison]

And as to your "kids' that you now state are 29 and 27 respectively - that is just smart@rsery -- obviously when people are talking about sailing with their family, they are talking about mum and dad and little kids or teenagers tops, not two "kids" old enough to have families of their own.

When we bought our new 34 in 2000, for the first five weeks we shared it with five visiting adult couples. It seemed to go alright but we were obviously doing something wrong.

 

[dansaskip]

However on a small boat you don't learn all the other things necessary for cruising like planning, navigation, provisioning the boat, managing the crew and parking the boat etc which are arguably far more important for successful cruising

I could not disagree more with this statement which I find to be both ridiculous and just plaln untrue.
Perhaps you could explain to me how I after years of sailing small boats (25' and 28', in case you are wondering) I had learnt enough of all these skills to cruise successfully for 6 years, UK to NZ and Pacific islands. Or perhaps you wouldn't consider this a successful cruise ??

 

[johnalison]

I could not disagree more with this statement which I find to be both ridiculous and just plaln untrue.
Perhaps you could explain to me how I after years of sailing small boats (25' and 28', in case you are wondering) I had learnt enough of all these skills to cruise successfully for 6 years, UK to NZ and Pacific islands. Or perhaps you wouldn't consider this a successful cruise ??

I don't know what he was thinking about regarding most of that, but in the matter of parking, or as we used to say, berthing, a boat I think he is quite wrong. This is where small boat and especially dinghy sailing comes into its own. Some only having sailing a big boat can generally bring it into a marina berth and other basic manoeuvres in normal conditions perfectly well, but I would not want to rely on most of them in more challenging conditions such as doing the same with engine failure. If it were up to me, I would want any sailor to have sailed for a week on the Broads in an engineless boat before giving them a certificate of competence, or to have regularly brought their boat alongside to raft onto an anchored boat in the same condition, as I regularly did. I may fail in properly provisioning my boat for the Atlantic crossing that I never did, but to date I have never damaged a third party.

 

[Stemar]

I could not disagree more with this statement which I find to be both ridiculous and just plaln untrue.
Perhaps you could explain to me how I after years of sailing small boats (25' and 28', in case you are wondering) I had learnt enough of all these skills to cruise successfully for 6 years, UK to NZ and Pacific islands. Or perhaps you wouldn't consider this a successful cruise ??

I think that depends on your definition of small boat. In a dinghy, you quickly learn to manage sails, handle gusts and so on - or you get to practice your swimming skills, while a cruiser of any size will let you get away with more. Sure, you won't go as fast if you get it wrong, but you're unlikely to end up swimming. Move up to a small cruiser - sub 30' - and you learn the planning, managing and parking and, because it's much easier on a smaller boat, I'd argue that people who learned cruising on a smaller boat tend to be more adventurous than someone who jumped in on a 40 footer, and, with notable exceptions, is only comfortable going from marina to marina.

Budgets may also influence where you go, too. Someone who has a small boat budget may find fancy marinas too expensive for regular use. I know I do.

 

[johnalison]

I think that depends on your definition of small boat. In a dinghy, you quickly learn to manage sails, handle gusts and so on - or you get to practice your swimming skills, while a cruiser of any size will let you get away with more. Sure, you won't go as fast if you get it wrong, but you're unlikely to end up swimming. Move up to a small cruiser - sub 30' - and you learn the planning, managing and parking and, because it's much easier on a smaller boat, I'd argue that people who learned cruising on a smaller boat tend to be more adventurous than someone who jumped in on a 40 footer, and, with notable exceptions, is only comfortable going from marina to marina.

Budgets may also influence where you go, too. Someone who has a small boat budget may find fancy marinas too expensive for regular use. I know I do.

I don't think it is only budget, but the cohort who come into sailing through sailing schools in larger boats only get to know marina life and see it as the norm. The actual experience is very different too. I have been out with a friend in his 20' boat once or twice and I had forgotten how much you are at the mercy of wind and wave. We bounced around with a reef in a popple that my 34 would not have even registered. Something not much more than F3 was more like F6 in my boat and maybe F7 for a 40'er. It might be that without small boat experience F6 or so might be the limit of their tolerance (some of them), while 6-7 has provided me with some of our best passages.

 

[doug748]

When I bought my 1970 vintage Snapdragon 24, she came with a PBO or similar article that described her as a capable family cruiser. I suspect that few would agree with that definition now, so what's your idea of a capable family cruiser now?

Yes, in 1970 the Snapdragon would have been a very nice, comfy family boat; it's only expectations that have changed. I should say a near equivalent today would be an older Bavaria 30/2, sort of thing.

I have before me an edition of Denny Desoutter's - Small Boat Cruising from the era. The majority of the forty or so boats discussed were well below 24 foot, the most outlandish being the Elizabethan 29. A luxury vehicle well out of the range of most readers.
Desoutter assumes people have dinghy experience, as most people did at the time. No doubt whatever that you can learn to sail in a 40 foot boat and become an expert. However the more I have thought about this, the more I think that it very difficult to develop close handling skills. Coming alongside under sail with confidence and elan is best sorted in the sort of boat where damage is unlikely.

Unless there are mobility problems, I can't imagine why any keen sailor would not want to have a go in a dinghy, apart from anything else you would look a right muffin if you had the handle one in an emergency.

.

 

[Sea Change]

Until you have to pay the Marina bill...

ISTM that there are really four main kinds of sailors, though with a significant overlap. Racers, for whom speed is the essence, and comfort a long way second. These may well also be part of one of the other groups. Then there are the kind of sailors with modest boats, run on a budget; at the lower budget end, they're the people who keep Centaurs and their ilk going (in my case, a Catalac), higher budgets will cruise with a 30-ish footer. Then there are those with a significant budget, who consider 38+ to be a family cruiser, and don't care about the marina costs. Finally, there are those who've worked out the truth of "If it floats, flies or fornicates..." and charter.

Liveaboards and blue water sailors would normally fit into one of the first three groups, though I suppose there's an argument that someone who buys a boat, cruises the world, then sells it, would be a better fit in the last one

As a liveaboard and bluewater sailor, I would say that my approach to budget and boat choice doesn't really fit in to any of those categories.
We have a relatively large (47ft) middle aged (1988) and very shabby boat. We would stick out like a sore thumb in a posh marina. Our canvas is held together with miles of hand stitched repairs and the hull hasn't seen a polisher in many years. But we're on a budget and there's always something more important to spend the time and money on.
It's an extremely comfortable size for a family of three to live on full time. In different circumstances, we would undoubtedly have chosen a smaller boat.

We know other full time sailing families who have smaller boats than us, but they're rare. The majority are on 40ft+ catamarans.

 

[Tranona]

I could not disagree more with this statement which I find to be both ridiculous and just plaln untrue.
Perhaps you could explain to me how I after years of sailing small boats (25' and 28', in case you are wondering) I had learnt enough of all these skills to cruise successfully for 6 years, UK to NZ and Pacific islands. Or perhaps you wouldn't consider this a successful cruise ??

I am afraid you (wilfully?) misunderstand what I am saying. The "small boat" bit refers to those who claim that you need to learn sailing in small dinghies or keelboats and that those who do this are better sailors when they move onto cruising. I was not criticising those like you who undertake extensive cruises in small(is) boats, although it is now a minority activity. That is just the way things have changed and affordable larger boats are available which most people seem to prefer. I spent 20 years cruising around the English Channel with and without my family in a 26' boat not dissimilar from yours. Then realised that if we wanted to continue sailing in a different form (semi liveaboard in the Med) a bigger boat was necessary and bought a 37'. Clearly not alone as in that period Late 90's early 2000s such boats were selling literally in their thousands - many of them for use by people who have never sailed a "small" boat.

 

[PeterV]

We love our GK29 but do accept that its creature comforts are not the same as a larger boat, but we gain on berthing fees, access to marinas and maintenance costs as a result. Her sailing ability is superb, I’m now in my 5th season with her and started club racing last year and I’m still constantly surprised how well she sails in both light and strong winds.
I’m now in the unexpected position of being able to buy a boat about 33 -36 ft but I’m really reluctant to make the change. Four years of work, including new headlining, new sails and rigging mean I’m reluctant to start all over again.

 

[Tranona]

I don't know what he was thinking about regarding most of that, but in the matter of parking, or as we used to say, berthing, a boat I think he is quite wrong. This is where small boat and especially dinghy sailing comes into its own. Some only having sailing a big boat can generally bring it into a marina berth and other basic manoeuvres in normal conditions perfectly well, but I would not want to rely on most of them in more challenging conditions such as doing the same with engine failure. If it were up to me, I would want any sailor to have sailed for a week on the Broads in an engineless boat before giving them a certificate of competence, or to have regularly brought their boat alongside to raft onto an anchored boat in the same condition, as I regularly did. I may fail in properly provisioning my boat for the Atlantic crossing that I never did, but to date I have never damaged a third party.

I am sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. There is nothing in dinghy sailing that helps in berthing a 40'cruiser in a marina. As for berthing under sail following engine failure - how often will you ever need that skill? and who says it can only be acquired through previous experience in small boats.

Sounds like you want to restrict sailing to those who can join your "club" only if they abide by your "rules" and do things your way.

Sad.