a bold but not insulting offer?

[GrayEllison]

A first time buyer, I am considering making an offer for an 18-ish year-old secondhand GRP boat of respected design and manufacture with a good reputation as a first buy. Having swotted up on back issues of PBO, I've crawled over as much of her as I can with torch and notebook, and since she's ashore with a broker I've also performed the sponge-and-squeegee-bottle routine on her undersides to look for blistering. All I can come up with using my strictly amateur knowledge is mostly minor cosmetic stuff, the overall impression being of a boat which has been loved and looked after and which you could throw back in the water, crank up and sail off in. So when Andrew Simpson in PBO suggests a "bold but not insulting" offer, do you reckon - on the basis of the limited info here - that 12.5% off the asking price is (a) not nearly bold enough (b) 'bout right or (c) insulting!

Subject to survey, of course...

Sorry, I'm sure it's a "how long is a piece of string" question, but I'll ask it anyway!

Regards CEO
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[woody001]

might help if you tell us what boat it is.....

 

[boatbuilder]

you're being too polite, offer 75% and then negotiate .

 

[Lakesailor]

I've posted this before, but here goes.
I have a piece of string in my garage and it's 13.5" long.

As to the value. I've also posted this before.
If it's in the range that you see others in and you're satisfied that it's OK then you need to negotiate and as it's with a broker you could risk being insulting. Don't forget you're going to have to come up. And don't let him know you could stretch to the asking price as he'll play you like a fish.
Lot's of owners overvalue boats. Especially older boats. They set values according to what they have spent and what they're hoping to move onto. (needing more money)
That's not your problem. You need to look at the likely expense of getting it into good nick and it's remaining useful life. It's like pass-the-parcel, at some point someone will be left holding a worthless boat.

So don't negotiate on the basis of what needs doing. They may have set the asking price high enough to come down to cover those factors, so you'll still end up paying top-end for a boat that needs work.
If you're satisfied that it's just in need of some titivating offer a price a bit lower than you would really like to get it for, and negotiate upwards.

When you're buying the door is never shut, unless they get a better offer or they are really barking.

 

[roboandkate]

I've just bought a new boat and knocked the guy down 5% on the asking price, I certain wouldn't have got it any cheaper.
I think what you have got to do is decide how much you want this particular boat, if you don't care too much try a low offer, it might work.
If you know what else is out there and really want this one I wouldn't risk p**sing the vendor off, get a feel for how long it has been on the market (the brokers ref many give an indication), ask the broker what sort of money he thinks the vendor is looking for (while he is nominally working for the vendor he's really working for himself and wants a sale) compare it to other ones on the market and decide what is a fair price. I would then go in at this saying it's a take it or leave it price.
Good luck

 

[colvic]

Don't offer more than 80%; you can always go up.

You don't see any poor brokers so there is a large margin in the price as the seller pays his dues on the final price so he doesn't lose as much as you think when make a lower offer.


Phil

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
I would then go in at this saying it's a take it or leave it price.


[/ QUOTE ] I think that's the key. Once you get caught up in costing out repairs they get niggly.
I wouldn't have thought pissing off the vendor was a big issue, unless you want some ongoing help.
But don't forget they may accept a low offer and try to claw back some value by removing gear you supposed was included or renaging on a passing on of moorings or some such thing.

I've been both a buyer and seller and it does annoy me (and I ran a post on it) when buyers are unrealistic. But by that I mean the ones who expect a perfect boat even though you've priced it at a sensitive level taking into account obvious defects. (like, it's ancient) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Tisme]

Offer what you think it is worth. These guidelines of only offering x% less than the asking price aren't really much help. some people will offer a boat for sale at a fair price, some will offer it cheap to try to sell quickly, others will ask a lot to see what they can get away with.

I've bought things at the asking price and not regretted it for one moment. I've also got substantial reductions when it's been appropriate.

Offer what it's worth. Don't miss out on a good buy by offering too little and putting the seller off.

 

[Lakesailor]

How do you put the seller off?
If you go back with a better offer and he wants the money will he say "Oh no, Tisme, you've upset me now so I don't want your money?"

Probably a good reason to be suspicious of his boat if he does.

 

[Tisme]

If you offer a silly price then come back with a little more then the seller may well be suspicious that you'll only start playing games when the survey is done.

In those circumstances then I know that I would prefer to deal with a buyer who is going to be reasonable to deal with....and that means he will make a reasonable offer. If he wants to be silly then he can be silly elsewhere.

 

[roboandkate]

"Oh no, Tisme, you've upset me now so I don't want your money?"
------------------------------------------------------------------
If I knew I had advertised something at a realistic price and someone offered me 75% I wouldn't have anything else to do with them. There's an awful lot of time wasters out there and I've got better things to do.

I'm sure in the long it's a lot quicker to do this and a better experience than have someone keep offering you £10 more than the last time until finally you agree only for them to start the whole process again once they've a survey in their hand.

 

[FlyingSpud]

As a buyer, I always like my first offer to be turned down. After all, if they accept it, you will always wonder how much further they may have gone.
I think 'a bold but not insulting offer' is quite apt but what that means in practice depends on each boat

 

[Gin]

Your advice is spot on, in my opinion.

Shopping(for anything) is a skill.

First you assess the market, then decide what it is worth to you ,then make an offer.

A rigid rule of adopting a %age mark down is inappropriate and could well be insulting.

On the other hand the objective must be to meet the seller on mutually acceptable terms so his(or her) notion of a realistic price may be way out of line with what the market will bear, which for the buyer is just as offensive and sometimes downright misleading as to condition.

Pay a fair price, even the asking price if it is worth it

 

[stevebrassett]

It also depends on how long the boat has been for sale for, and how desperate the owner is to sell it. I paid virtually the asking price for mine, as it had just come on the market for a sensible price. I haven't regretted it for a moment. If, however, it had been for sale for six months, then I would have offered less.

 

[Tisme]

Yup!

I can't help but think that always offering 40% less than the asking price is simply a recipe for buying from the sellers who works on the basis of always asking 40% more then a boat is worth!

(I know that the maths doesn't work out like that, but you know what I mean!)

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
If you offer a silly price then come back with a little more then the seller may well be suspicious that you'll only start playing games when the survey is done.

In those circumstances then I know that I would prefer to deal with a buyer who is going to be reasonable to deal with....and that means he will make a reasonable offer. If he wants to be silly then he can be silly elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now where have I said offer a silly price?
Read through my posts again and you'll see that I am saying you should aim to get the boat at what you consider to be the real value, which means you'll have to start at a bit below that. Not what the vendor considers to be a good price.

The concept of basing an offer on a % below the asking price infers that you are accepting the asking price is a dependable reflection of the boat's worth.

The buyer is the only person who can decide what a boat is worth, TO HIM, and that may well be the asking price.

That seems to tie in precisely with what you are saying.

As far as dismissing buyers who "Want to be silly . " I sold my last boat to just such a person. On the face of it he was a messer, but he wasn't experienced in buying boats and the signals coming over were not encouraging. In fact he turned out to be a stayer and he bought the boat after a couple of months when I thought he'd gone cold.

If you talk to on-site sales people who work for large home-building companies (as I have done a great deal) they will tell you that you can never tell who is genuine and who is not until the ink is dry on the contract.

 

[Parashandy]

I wonder how pleased the 'satisfied' owners who paid near the asking price would be if they now tried to sell and discovered how difficult it is to get anywhere near the price they paid. The addendum to Flying Spud's post just about sums it all up.

 

[Tisme]

I didn't say you did. You asked "How do you put the seller off?" and I replied to that question.
My point was aimed at those who say "always offer x% less than the asking price"; it doesn't necessarily work.

The fact remains that some sellers will be put off by a silly offer.

I much prefer to do business with people who I can...well, do business with! Good buying is just as much an art as good selling. There's always another buyer, just as there's always another seller.

 

[Koeketiene]

Depends how much you're willing to "put in" your boat.

Five years ago we bought Yanita for 50K - we knew she would need "some work".
Over the next 5 years we spent about 20K on a complete refit.

Last Februray she sold for 69K.
In all - we "lost" 1K. (about 200 a year - pretty cheap sailing if you ask me).

My advise would be to buy an older boat from a yard with some reputation (Moody, Contessa, Etap, the Swedes, Contest, ...). Even if she needs work.
You won't get your money back (might get close like we did), but at least most of the depreciation is behind you.

 

[LittleShip]

As you can see from some of the replies....there are many on here who know everything about needs based and emotive sales pitches???? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
You will find forum members complain about time wasters and yet still give out percentages of what to offer. Give me strength............talk politely and negotiate.

If you and only you think the boat is worth it buy it, but use a surveyor to "help " make the decision.

Tom