8mm Anchor chain?

[noelex]

The difference with a rope, or mixed rode is that you don't need a snubber if the rope part of the rode has sufficient elasticity.

Rope rode will be thicker than the correct sized snubber. It also may not be nylon. These factors means the rode will have less elasticity per unit length. Therefore you need a longer section of rope rode before the stretch is adequate.

If the rope section is too short and the stretch is inadequate you need to use a snubber, just like you do with chain. If necessary the snubber is usually attached at the chain where it also serves as a back up in the event of chafe.

 

[Storyline]

As Jonathan mentioned earlier in this thread anchoring is all about compromises and for me the disadvantages (feeding down hawsepipe, volume of space in anchor locker, chafe & having to deploy more than you may need) of a mixed rode outweigh the only disadvantage (weight) of using all chain and a snubber.

Am also suspicious that the rope part of a mixed rode would jam in the anchor locker as it passes through the hawsepipe whereas chain self stows and also runs smoothly up to the gypsy.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Chain from a reputable supplier is marked. The markings are simple but can usually be used to define the manufacturer. At the least - in your case they will include something that defines 'quality' or Grade, a 3 or a 4. Chain cannot be sold in America unless it is marked. If its is not marked - you have no idea off the quality, Grade, nor manufacturer. What are the marks on the chain you had that broke?

None, nor on the replacement. I do not live in North America. The chain in question was probably supplied with the boat in 1986. If you want some to test, I have ~6m in a box somewhere.

 

[vyv_cox]

My last 8mm chain snapped in 40 - 50kt gusts on the Firth of Clyde. Offshore wind, smooth water, 25lb CQR, 26' boat, remaining chain looks fine.

I dreamed up the DIY chain test at bottom of this page http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Chaindefinitions.aspx when one of the test samples failed at under 2 tonnes. The welds in that chain showed little penetration and broke quite easily when bent with a spanner. Although most chains I tested had strengths well in excess of the stated minimum there were a couple that came close (European made) and one well below (Chinese).

 

[Storyline]

Another powerful argument against mixed rodes is the decline in elasticity in the rope part with repeated usage. There was a highly detailed discussion earlier this year about how it is advisable to replace your snubber regularly for this very reason. It is not too costly to replace a 5m snubber but replacing 50m+ of octoplait is a different ball game. From memory there is a significant difference between nylon and p/e but I cannot remember which degrades faster ! Also cannot remember the name of the poster who seemed to know about all this but I do remember he had an absolutely gorgeous trawler yacht. He also called a snubber a pendant/pennant.

Edit : Remember his name is Defin and the (informative) thread is here :
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?379444-Anchor-snub-lines&highlight=Pendant

 

[Ravi]

He also called a snubber a pendant/pennant.

He sounds a bit pendantic to me.

 

[lw395]

Another powerful argument against mixed rodes is the decline in elasticity in the rope part with repeated usage......

That can be true, but only in repeated use at high loads.
Repeated use in light weather won't exercise the rope much.
It's still going to be more elastic than chain.

Like many things with boats, it depends on what you want from your boat.
As well as the size of boat etc etc.

 

[Sarnia]

'There are no doubt ways to overcome the chafe but it just adds unnecessary complication and surely 10m of snubber has a similar effect as 10m of rope rode.'

Chafe can be protected against as the video shows, I do not agree the effect is similar as 10m of rope, because with 10m of rope that is all you have, with 10m of a snubber you have both.

 

[oldbilbo]

My last 8mm chain snapped in 40 - 50kt gusts on the Firth of Clyde. Offshore wind, smooth water, 25lb CQR, 26' boat, remaining chain looks fine.

That's why I'm using 10mm chain on my 27' boat. IMHO safety gear such as ground tackle should be beyond question. When it's blowing a hoolie, the last thing I want to be worried about is whether my chain is up to the job. It - must - be - sufficient - to - the - need.

 

[doug748]

" There was a highly detailed discussion earlier this year about how it is advisable to replace your snubber regularly for this very reason" Storyline



I think I missed that one.

There was an article in one of the mags about 10 years ago. It featured a bloke who was most disappointed with his 8 strand because it was hard and lumpy and not soft and floppy like when it was new. If I remember right, he had given it hard use for about 18 months.

 

[charles_reed]

As Jonathan mentioned earlier in this thread anchoring is all about compromises and for me the disadvantages (feeding down hawsepipe, volume of space in anchor locker, chafe & having to deploy more than you may need) of a mixed rode outweigh the only disadvantage (weight) of using all chain and a snubber.

Am also suspicious that the rope part of a mixed rode would jam in the anchor locker as it passes through the hawsepipe whereas chain self stows and also runs smoothly up to the gypsy.

Equally much one would have justification in pointing out the disadvantages of chain - too much weight in the wrong place, inevitable rust marks from locker drains, cost, lack of hysterisis.
Having tried the alternatives, for my boat, I'd never anchor in earnest on all chain - in fact, used as a snubber the amount of textile is totally inadequate to act as a shock-absorber in broken water.
But then I have no hawse pipe to jam and a lightweight flyer that can't stand bad trim. Additionally, like most modern, high-aspect fin-keel boats she doesn't lie passively to anchor.
So every sailor has to find the arrangements that suit their boat - having looked at the theory, I cannot believe there are people around who still argue passionately for all-chain anchor rodes, and assume that all-chain will be less heavy than chain/textile! I would concede that textile rode probably needs changing as frequently as chain. Of course, you can re-galvanise chain - rather more of a performance than washing your anchor rode.

 

[charles_reed]

I understand rode to mean anything other than chain, but I see your point, although most speak in terms of an x amount of chain with a y amount of rode, meaning rope of one sort or another, could me mistaken.

Indeed:-

rode 2 (rd)
n. Nautical
A cable, chain, or rope, especially one attached to the anchor of a small boat.
[From Middle English at rode, at an anchorage, from rode, a riding; see road.]

Corrupted to Roads, as in Carrick Roads.

 

[charles_reed]

'There are no doubt ways to overcome the chafe but it just adds unnecessary complication and surely 10m of snubber has a similar effect as 10m of rope rode.'

Chafe can be protected against as the video shows, I do not agree the effect is similar as 10m of rope, because with 10m of rope that is all you have, with 10m of a snubber you have both.

Enlighten me - what's the difference?
For most the snubber is that 2-3 m of rope that takes the chain load off the windlass. 10m of textile under load, to me, is a mixed chain/textile rode.
It always helps to know what it is we are arguing about.

 

[Ravi]

Some people say that the subject of anchoring is obfuscated by superstition, fantasy and myth but I find it very straightforward. I have never had a problem with my ground tackle.
I gave up using chain and warp a long time ago and I just have a short length of Mithral. This holds my boat, (Alcarondas), in any conditions when I am sailing in he challenging conditions in my local cruising ground in Arda. I have a 2 kg. Istari Enchanted anchor which helps, of course.

Anchoring? I don't know what the fuss is all about! As they say in Glasgae, it's pure magic!

 

[charles_reed]

I'm just wondering whether the experience, and the techniques, illustrated here carry any weight in this discussion....

Then there's the corollorary vid ( which IPC/Time/Warner won't permit, despite it being their own production )....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZVVstkdQU


It sometimes seems, in these circular discussions, that opinions derive from two groups of people.... Those who seek the smallest and lightest gear they believe they can get away with, and those who want their safety gear to be 'bombproof'.

In my value-system, where I am likely to have responsibility, in a blow, for others' safety and security - friends, family, other rabid forumeers - there just ain't no such animule as 'too big and strong' in ground tackle.

With all deference to Skip Novak, anchoring in a blow, whether under sail or power is pretty simple - the anchor sets (usually) immediately. More difficult is to anchor with a Bf2 with no motor. Most yotties seem to be so terrified of dislodging the anchor that they don't give enough force to set an anchor (especially if a CQR, Delta, Brittany or Bruce.)
As to having everything overweight - entirely in line with those who advocate a Saracen for motorway use as being stronger heavier and more likely to survive an incident with a Merc.
In terms of the admiralty stockless anchor there can be no doubt that weight is all important - however with more modern anchors the connection becomes increasingly tenuous.
As already pointed out, the chain used by most is far heavier and stronger than needed. In fact I've never heard of anything but QAS-failed chain parting.
Too big (not necessarily too strong) is definitely counter productive, in anchors insufficient penetration, in chain problems of recovery - with both the problem of badly unbalancing a boat by putting too much weight in the (front) end.
So, whilst I sympathise with the emotion, I disagree with the logic.
An example - a good friend of mine, a long time Red Cross, regional representative and a medic by training. Ultra-cautious, highly scientific...
He bought an all-steel boat - he re-rigged it (with new standing rigging) of 1x19 x 16 instead of 12mm. He increased the chain from 30 x 8mm to 100 x 10mm, he fitted a 6-man life raft and a 27kg CQR instead of the 25lb one it came with, he doubled the battery capacity. After much rearrangement of trim he had the boat riding absolutely level (and only about 60mm higher than its original Lac Leman waterline).
He still had one problem in the marina in Argeles, water constantly seeped in (it turned out, from above the rudder tube).

I'd humbly submit that most cruisers will never experience winds, at anchor, above a continuous 35 knots and carrying heavier tackle than that needed to cope with those conditions is likely to cause more injury, (back, fingers, hands, feet) than safety AND, in many cases, cripple the vessel so equipped.
Just a point of view...

 

[J Neeves]

None, nor on the replacement. I do not live in North America. The chain in question was probably supplied with the boat in 1986. If you want some to test, I have ~6m in a box somewhere.

I have heard f one other chain that snapped. It broke at the weld under fairly begin conditions. Fortuitously the owner was able to find both the 'lost' bit of chain with anchor and the broken link. The chain maker was horrified and quietly replaced the chain.

If the chain you have left looks good then the implications are the wire from which is was made was suspect or the welds suspect - and Vyvs tests are good. It might merit a comment from Vyv but if the welds are suspect I would imagine other welds in the same production run, which could be 1,000m, are also suspect. Of the one I mentioned earlier the weld lacked penetration but looked to have corroded, internally - so within the weld - and it was fairly new chain.

It underlines a point - only buy chain from a reputable source. Reputable suppliers uniquely mark their chain, unless its under 8mm. Maggi use A4 and A7, Peerless use P and a number, Campbell C and a number, PWB (oz) simply PWB, Serafini (Oz) P or L, CMP (aka Rocna) use CMP on some links and number or grade on alternate links. Many Chinese chains are not marked. If you want to buy a chain that is not marked get a certificate confirming the chain has been Proof Tested - if you cannot get a cert - buy at your own risk. The PWB cert, it costs nothing you just need to ask, provides batch number, load at failure (they test to break each batch, about 1,000m (which is an industry standard), Proof Test load. None of this is fool proof - but there is little point in buying the best anchor in the world, rated shackles - if the chain is a load of junk. You can also buy (borrow) a few links of chain from the barrel you want to buy, go home and use Vyvs tests - its better than buying blind. You should not need to buy and the chandler should not worry you want to test - if he makes it difficult, go to another chandler - I would have doubts of the confidence of the chandler if he does not make it easy or supply a certificate.

Jonathan

Edit: I'd like to test the offending chain - but it is quite expensive getting the chain to me here in Oz and as we do not know where the chain came from I'm not sure its going to be too useful. But maybe as a first up try Vyv's tests. I can test quite cheaply as I'm now testing in bulk.

But Vyv did some excellent work which he reported in YM, forget month. He clearly demonstrated that much Chinese chain G30 is over spec and near G40 but he also demonstrated that some Chinese chain is poor - and the big issue is differentiating one from t'other. Vyv did not mention if the chain he tested was marked and I fear suppliers (wholesalers) might buy by price and chop and change and this might not filter through to the chandlers - hence if no marks - ask for a certificate.

Sorry but this seems to be real thread drift, apologies to the OP.

 

[NormanS]

I'd humbly submit that most cruisers will never experience winds, at anchor, above a continuous 35 knots and carrying heavier tackle than that needed to cope with those conditions is likely to cause more injury, (back, fingers, hands, feet) than safety AND, in many cases, cripple the vessel so equipped.
Just a point of view...

So for those of us who do quite often experience winds of over 35 knots, what do you think we should do? just give up sailing?
Provided that one has a safe MO, there is no reason why there should be any injuries.

We cruised with our previous 60ft boat with all 16mm chain, and a 140lb plough anchor. My wife did nearly all the anchoring.

 

[J Neeves]

With a 60' yacht and 140 lb anchor(s) I'd hope to have a twin bow roller and some means to deploy and retrieve both anchors with an electric windlass.

But few people do experience winds at their mast head over 35 knots when at anchor and those that do, and do so frequently, develop the skills necessary (as they work though the school of hard knocks) to cope with continuous winds of 35 knots +. Hands up those who in their first season as skipper went cruising to areas where 35 knots plus was the norm?

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

With a 60' yacht and 140 lb anchor(s) I'd hope to have a twin bow roller and some means to deploy and retrieve both anchors with an electric windlass.

But few people do experience winds at their mast head over 35 knots when at anchor and those that do, and do so frequently, develop the skills necessary (as they work though the school of hard knocks) to cope with continuous winds of 35 knots +. Hands up those who in their first season as skipper went cruising to areas where 35 knots plus was the norm?

Jonathan[/QUOTE


Actually, it was a hydraulic windlass, which is much better, which had two gypsies for two separate chains, on two separate bow rollers, and a good warping drum.

35 knots is Force 8, which is not at all uncommon in the Western Isles. Although gales are more frequent in the winter months, when fewer people are cruising in these waters, over the years we have had several summer storms in the 60kns, and one quite nasty one in the 70kns, so it pays to be prepared.

 

[Sarnia]

Indeed:-

rode 2 (rd)
n. Nautical
A cable, chain, or rope, especially one attached to the anchor of a small boat.
[From Middle English at rode, at an anchorage, from rode, a riding; see road.]

Corrupted to Roads, as in Carrick Roads.

Thank you for pointing that out to me, I stand corrected, rode is as the description above. As a boy I would go with my uncle, who was the captain of the Islands pilots (Guernsey - hence Sarnia its original name) to ships waiting in the 'roads' for the pilot to join them.