jfm
Well-Known Member
:encouragement:
Will be good to see both vessels berthed side by side, old one to the right
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850 nm from Canet to Salerno and the Amalfi coast (Lots of photos!) - Part 1
- Thread starter MAFWeiss
- Start date
Will be good to see both vessels berthed side by side, old one to the right
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Here's my three penny worth if it is any help.
If I were buying a P68 to replace our P67, I would probably not specify stabilisers.
If we get swell, we move.
All stabiliser systems require the generator running and for me peace and quiet is what anchoring is about.
IMHO, if you have to have stabs running at anchor, you shouldn't be there at all.
As far as cruising is concerned, we wouldn't (don't) miss stabs.
Again, it is a state of mind thing - too much swell and we don't go.
And a 20m Flybridge boat can handle quite big seas without stabs and without the crew feeling sick.
I guess they are about £70k/£80k to fit - maybe the giro ones are cheaper.
So, for me, lots of things come before stabs - here's a list
Usual stuff
Air conditioning
Bimini
Passerelle
Decent Dinghy
Foredeck cushions etc
Hi Lo bathing platform - although I don't regret not having one - less metalwork to attract barnacles
Boat with big mid owners cabin
And then
Full wind instrumentation and alarms.
Water Maker
Maybe - underwater lights
And (sorry I have to say this) - internal stairs
All these would be on my list BEFORE stabilisers.
I know I'll be shot down for saying this!!!
If I were buying a P68 to replace our P67, I would probably not specify stabilisers.
If we get swell, we move.
All stabiliser systems require the generator running and for me peace and quiet is what anchoring is about.
IMHO, if you have to have stabs running at anchor, you shouldn't be there at all.
As far as cruising is concerned, we wouldn't (don't) miss stabs.
Again, it is a state of mind thing - too much swell and we don't go.
And a 20m Flybridge boat can handle quite big seas without stabs and without the crew feeling sick.
I guess they are about £70k/£80k to fit - maybe the giro ones are cheaper.
So, for me, lots of things come before stabs - here's a list
Usual stuff
Air conditioning
Bimini
Passerelle
Decent Dinghy
Foredeck cushions etc
Hi Lo bathing platform - although I don't regret not having one - less metalwork to attract barnacles
Boat with big mid owners cabin
And then
Full wind instrumentation and alarms.
Water Maker
Maybe - underwater lights
And (sorry I have to say this) - internal stairs
All these would be on my list BEFORE stabilisers.
I know I'll be shot down for saying this!!!
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
MarieK
Well-Known Member
May I ask what the connection with Italian Baroque painters is?
MAFWeiss
Well-Known Member
:encouragement:
Will be good to see both vessels berthed side by side, old one to the right
this is scary... exactly what I wanted to do! By the way, I called my 550 GENTILESCHI after a painting I sold by Orazio Gentileschi that was painted on the highly precious stone Lapis Lazuli (blue) - now on loan in the National Gallery in London. So I thought it would be rather cool to call my second after that painter's more famous daughter Artemisia - especially as it is a very beautiful name in its own right.
MAFWeiss
Well-Known Member
MAFWeiss
Well-Known Member
MAFWeiss
Well-Known Member
Will you call the tender 'Onofrio'...?
errrr... NO!
MAFWeiss
Well-Known Member
Kinda disagree
jfm
Well-Known Member
Artemisia is a very fine name for a boat - intrinsically elegant - and your own personal (+business) connection makes it all the nicer. My boat's name Match has a strong (to me, and it's too hard to explain) personal/business connection too. It's much less elegant than Artemisia of course, but I'm a yorkshireman so I can reflect on the money I saved on stainless steel lettering!
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Well, I would never dare shooting anyone on any matter of personal preferences, of course. And I fully agree that stabs are a pretty expensive bit of kit.
But aside from economics, ranking stabs below cushions or u/w lights sounds unreal, sort of...
In fact, that makes me wonder if you actually tried some cruising with a stabilized boat.
Let me make an example based on a recent experience I made on a boat similar to yours, when Deleted User kindly invited me to join him for the transfer of his Ferretti from Olbia to Cagliari.
We had some quartering seas along most of the E coast of Sardinia, and we cruised at both D and P speed.
The boat handled those conditions beautifully, at anything from 10 to 20 knots and more, with nobody onboard ever feeling sick.
Which in a sense proves your point that stabs aren't essential, I suppose.
But having said that, I can assure you that whenever we were cruising at D speed, if we would have been on my boat (as well as in any other stabilized vessel, of course), the motion would have been more stable and comfortable - in spite of the significantly smaller size: almost 4m shorter and 1m narrower.
Btw, among planing boats, in my experience Ferrettis are quite stable, being wider and heavier than the average, for any given length.
Now, it's true that at planing speed the rolling flattened out significantly, courtesy of the hydrodinamic stabilization.
Otoh, it's also true that in those conditions the cruise doesn't get much more comfortable by increasing the speed, even if the rolling angle is smaller, because the boat motion becomes obviously more hectic, rather than smooth and gentle.
Bottom line, were those conditions good enough to enjoy a cruise with a 20m f/b boat? Absolutely.
BUT, would the same cruise have been more comfortable, particularly when pootling (but not only), if the boat were stabilized? You bet.
I'd be more than happy to give you a taste of stabilized pootling with my old tub next summer, when you will come to S Sardinia.
The only way to really appreciate the difference stabs can make is by turning them on and off while cruising.
And it doesn't take big seas either: I know it might sound hard to believe, but you can immediately feel the difference also with just 2 feet waves...! :encouragement:
MapisM
Well-Known Member
LOL, I don't want to revamp an old debate, but you should advise Azimut, Benetti, Moonen and Sanlorenzo (among others) on that.
All of them must have got the wrong side of the stick, when they decided to move from hydraulic to electric for new builds, and also for boats even bigger than the biggest Princess...!
jfm
Well-Known Member
That's kind of a non point though Mapis. If I were to list the builders who chose something other than CMC electric fins it would be way longer list than your 4. Your 4 are of course very respectable, but imho trying to find an answer by looking at who-dun-what is a bit of dead end. Indeed the first on your list, Azimut, fit various things including Wesmar fins as OEM on Magellano, and Sunseeker put CMC electrics on hulls 1+2 of their new 86 but after trials abandoned them and will switch back to other brands for this model going forwards (I think due to the noise thing, not to stabilisation ability which CMC have no problem with)LOL, I don't want to revamp an old debate, but you should advise Azimut, Benetti, Moonen and Sanlorenzo (among others) on that.
All of them must have got the wrong side of the stick, when they decided to move from hydraulic to electric for new builds, and also for boats even bigger than the biggest Princess...!
You seem to have taken my comment as relating to electric fins generally. It wasn't - it was very clearly related specifically to the particular case of a new build Prin 68 where (a) the easy installation of electrics hardly matters because it is new build not retro; (b) the boat is far too small to separate the people from the gearbox noise; and (c) the alternative curved fin will work better on a relatively light and fast boat.
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jfm
Well-Known Member
Well, I would never dare shooting anyone on any matter of personal preferences, of course. And I fully agree that stabs are a pretty expensive bit of kit.
But aside from economics, ranking stabs below cushions or u/w lights sounds unreal, sort of...
In fact, that makes me wonder if you actually tried some cruising with a stabilized boat.
Let me make an example based on a recent experience I made on a boat similar to yours, when Deleted User kindly invited me to join him for the transfer of his Ferretti from Olbia to Cagliari.
We had some quartering seas along most of the E coast of Sardinia, and we cruised at both D and P speed.
The boat handled those conditions beautifully, at anything from 10 to 20 knots and more, with nobody onboard ever feeling sick.
Which in a sense proves your point that stabs aren't essential, I suppose.
But having said that, I can assure you that whenever we were cruising at D speed, if we would have been on my boat (as well as in any other stabilized vessel, of course), the motion would have been more stable and comfortable - in spite of the significantly smaller size: almost 4m shorter and 1m narrower.
Btw, among planing boats, in my experience Ferrettis are quite stable, being wider and heavier than the average, for any given length.
Now, it's true that at planing speed the rolling flattened out significantly, courtesy of the hydrodinamic stabilization.
Otoh, it's also true that in those conditions the cruise doesn't get much more comfortable by increasing the speed, even if the rolling angle is smaller, because the boat motion becomes obviously more hectic, rather than smooth and gentle.
Bottom line, were those conditions good enough to enjoy a cruise with a 20m f/b boat? Absolutely.
BUT, would the same cruise have been more comfortable, particularly when pootling (but not only), if the boat were stabilized? You bet.
I'd be more than happy to give you a taste of stabilized pootling with my old tub next summer, when you will come to S Sardinia.
The only way to really appreciate the difference stabs can make is by turning them on and off while cruising.
And it doesn't take big seas either: I know it might sound hard to believe, but you can immediately feel the difference also with just 2 feet waves...! :encouragement:
I completely agree every word of that Mapis. Right now my boat's mast has been taken apart for a HT fitment next month so I have no GPS mushrooms. The stab fins are therefore locked in the centre position. I took the boat out for lunch recently and I was amazed how different it felt with gentle rolling rather than perfect-flatness!
On the cost thing, yes expensive, but I'm pretty sure you get it all back on resale, if that is relevant to any man-maths. There is a clear premium in the used market for stabilised boats in this size range and above. My last boat sold to the first people who came to view it and I'm sure I got a price premium that more than covered the stabiliser cost
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Well, I would never dare shooting anyone on any matter of personal preferences, of course. And I fully agree that stabs are a pretty expensive bit of kit.
But aside from economics, ranking stabs below cushions or u/w lights sounds unreal, sort of...
In fact, that makes me wonder if you actually tried some cruising with a stabilized boat.
Let me make an example based on a recent experience I made on a boat similar to yours, when Deleted User kindly invited me to join him for the transfer of his Ferretti from Olbia to Cagliari.
We had some quartering seas along most of the E coast of Sardinia, and we cruised at both D and P speed.
The boat handled those conditions beautifully, at anything from 10 to 20 knots and more, with nobody onboard ever feeling sick.
Which in a sense proves your point that stabs aren't essential, I suppose.
But having said that, I can assure you that whenever we were cruising at D speed, if we would have been on my boat (as well as in any other stabilized vessel, of course), the motion would have been more stable and comfortable - in spite of the significantly smaller size: almost 4m shorter and 1m narrower.
Btw, among planing boats, in my experience Ferrettis are quite stable, being wider and heavier than the average, for any given length.
Now, it's true that at planing speed the rolling flattened out significantly, courtesy of the hydrodinamic stabilization.
Otoh, it's also true that in those conditions the cruise doesn't get much more comfortable by increasing the speed, even if the rolling angle is smaller, because the boat motion becomes obviously more hectic, rather than smooth and gentle.
Bottom line, were those conditions good enough to enjoy a cruise with a 20m f/b boat? Absolutely.
BUT, would the same cruise have been more comfortable, particularly when pootling (but not only), if the boat were stabilized? You bet.
I'd be more than happy to give you a taste of stabilized pootling with my old tub next summer, when you will come to S Sardinia.
The only way to really appreciate the difference stabs can make is by turning them on and off while cruising.
And it doesn't take big seas either: I know it might sound hard to believe, but you can immediately feel the difference also with just 2 feet waves...! :encouragement:
Thanks for commenting - I knew I would get some kind of criticism for saying that.
My main point is that, IMHO, stabs aren't worth the extra cost.
I'm sure that they work - in fact, JFM showed me them working in a large beam sea on Match 1
I just can't justify them in my mind.
The items/list that I posted was really only an example - there are much more important things to get right rather than stabs.
Its about what we use the boat for - not trying to "sit it out" in seas that we actually don't like.
And not cruising in strong weather - no rushing about - instead we just sit back and enjoy wherever we are.
We try to use the boat in comfortable situations - and to date we have achieved that goal.
Here's an example - anchorage in Es Trenc
Even with all that activity (plenty of chop) there is absolutely no need for stabs.
We spent days in this anchorage last summer - i does calm down at night.
In fact, I'd rather spend the money that I'd save on stabs and buy some more toys like this!!!
Anyway, the plan for South Sardinia (Carloforte) this summer is coming together nicely so maybe you will be able to show me the difference.
BTW - I've got the family and friends working out dates and I was about an hour ahead of you when you suggested staying the whole summer.
Lots of planning to do yet but it still looks good.
PS
I will be looking for those quiet anchorages (no swell)!!!
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Haha, I knew that we would eventually come, yet again, to the point of agreeing to disagree on the whole hydr vs. elec thing, so let's just do that!
Just a couple of very specific things though, out of genuine curiosity:
1) why do you think noise is an issue with elec?
I mean, of course they are not completely silent, but for any given installations (fully enclosed or not, inside the cabin or elsewhere, etc.), I'm not sure I would rather sleep with the irregular noise of hydraulic pistons and valves, as opposed to the electric whining. And aside from the noise "type", I think that also the "volume" difference is neither here nor there.
Mind, on the very specific situation of stabilization kept on while overnighting at anchor, I'm actually with Hurricane: I'd rather move elsewhere than sleep wherever I must keep the genset (which in itself is more noisy than the stabs, in most boats) and the stabs on all night long.
Otoh, I do see the point of zero speed stabs for days out (particularly in diving cruises, as I already said when talking of the FDC experience), but obviously noise is not an issue in that situation.
2) it's been a while since our "fight" (forum style, of course...
) on the effectiveness of curved fins, and I've yet to see any proper test/comparison, with AOTBE results between vector and flat fins. Are you aware of anything like that which was published somewhere, in the meantime?
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that, it'll be a pleasure to meet at sea rather than virtually, for a change!
Btw, I'm still down here ATM, but today I moved the boat to my yard where they will pull her tomorrow, before we'll fly back home.
And this year, due to a long trip down under, we will only put the boat back in the water towards the end of May.
But don't hesitate to email me for any further details you might need!
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that, it'll be a pleasure to meet at sea rather than virtually, for a change!
Btw, I'm still down here ATM, but today I moved the boat to my yard where they will pull her tomorrow, before we'll fly back home.
And this year, due to a long trip down under, we will only put the boat back in the water towards the end of May.
But don't hesitate to email me for any further details you might need!
OK - Thanks
We might even be there when you get back!!
Perhaps in time for that Tuna event
jfm
Well-Known Member
Mapis I have answers to your points but by the nature of the (interesting!) debate it would take up several column inches and I'm feeling guilty about over hijacking of Mark's IT cruise story. So shall we suspend it till another occasion? I'm planning a big yard period in 6 weeks including HT, curved fins, and Colhel's carbon ensign staff and I will post details+pics then. That would be a great time for a fight if there is no earlier opportunity
if there is no earlier opportunity
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I might be unable to make it for the Girotonno (as they call the tuna event), this year. It'll depend on the actual date though, let's stay in touch.
Btw, it's been a while since myself and missus made our last "tonnara" dive, and we would happily make another one, if you're thinking to take the opportunity to swim with hundreds of huge bluefin tunas.
Talking of which, since I maybe forgot to mention that in my email, the possibility is usually valid till mid of June.
And for the dive itself, I would rather suggest to NOT arrange it during the days of the event, because that's when the place is more crowded.
Which is nice for walking around and enjoy the show, but not so much for the dive...
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