42DS reversing performance

[Rob_Webb]

Did a sea-trial today in a Jeanneau 42DS and was very disappointed by reversing performance.

Lots of prop walk (kicked stern to port) and very poor bite even at high revs e.g. 3000.

Apparently it's a 3-bladed folding Volvo prop.

Any views / experience / ideas?

Thanks

 

[lpdsn]

Some of the French AWBs with prop shafts (rather than sail drive) do have a surprising amount of prop kick.

 

[Tranona]

It is shaft driven so not surprising a bit of a handful in reverse. Newer boats have steerable saildrives to ease low speed handling. The normal solution is a bow thruster which does make life easier once you learn to use it to aid the rudder and offset the prop walk. It is only when you get a bow thruster that you appreciate how useful it is.

 

[RupertW]

I'm still of the opinion that bow thruster sounds are the way that you know that bad parkers are going to hit your boat through ineptitude. We have a Jeanneau 42 with shaft and after 7 years I can say that I don't know which way our prop walk goes as the force of the tiniest wind on the bows is much more significant.

The main thing is going with the way your boat wants to go and taking advantage.

 

[rotrax]

I'm still of the opinion that bow thruster sounds are the way that you know that bad parkers are going to hit your boat through ineptitude. We have a Jeanneau 42 with shaft and after 7 years I can say that I don't know which way our prop walk goes as the force of the tiniest wind on the bows is much more significant.

The main thing is going with the way your boat wants to go and taking advantage.

It would be quite difficult to go astern reliably in our boat without the bow thruster in any other than perfect conditions.

When First Mate brings us in alongside Port side to, the prop walk brings the stern in a treat so I can just step off the swim platform with a stern line.

 

[RupertW]

It would be quite difficult to go astern reliably in our boat without the bow thruster in any other than perfect conditions.

When First Mate brings us in alongside Port side to, the prop walk brings the stern in a treat so I can just step off the swim platform with a stern line.

Interesting - what boat do you have and do you berth bow or stern to? Our larger boat is in the Med so it's always stern to and I think that helps a lot.

 

[wully1]

I'm still of the opinion that bow thruster sounds are the way that you know that bad parkers are going to hit your boat through ineptitude.

im with you on that.. The sound of a bow thruster is the sound of panic...

 

[pvb]

im with you on that.. The sound of a bow thruster is the sound of panic...

That's ridiculous! In skilled hands, bow thrusters are invaluable aids.

 

[johnalison]

That's ridiculous! In skilled hands, bow thrusters are invaluable aids.

But to many of us just a warning of someone too lazy to learn to manoeuvre properly. A Dutch lock is nowadays full of the sound of boats whirring away for no obvious reason, though many of them are medium-sized motor boats on charter. A friend of mine has a 46' Island Packet which he sometimes has to manage just with his not-very-nautical wife, and his own shaky pins. He tends to use his thruster more than I would expect for someone of his experience, but I think it has just become a habit, as with many users, but in his case I can understand why.

 

[Tranona]

A friend of mine has a 46' Island Packet which he sometimes has to manage just with his not-very-nautical wife, and his own shaky pins. He tends to use his thruster more than I would expect for someone of his experience, but I think it has just become a habit, as with many users, but in his case I can understand why.

That is exactly the point. A bow thruster is an aid that allows you to do things that might otherwise be difficult. Without it I could not reliably berth my boat in the tight berth that I have single handed. This would seriously limit the amount I could use my boat - indeed could not justify owning it.

 

[Toutvabien]

That is exactly the point. A bow thruster is an aid that allows you to do things that might otherwise be difficult. Without it I could not reliably berth my boat in the tight berth that I have single handed. This would seriously limit the amount I could use my boat - indeed could not justify owning it.

That sounds very sensible to me, I am just considering fitting one for that very reason.

 

[TangaraToo]

im with you on that.. The sound of a bow thruster is the sound of panic...

Huge generalisation there.
We had an instructor on board for a day to train owner in berthing techniques.
His response to being told the boat had a BT was that we would NOT be using that during the day as it wasn't necessary.
Within a short time of trying to put the boat back in to our berth he changed his tune to " well it has a BT so we might as well use it"
Our berth has a very short finger which only extends to the mid cleat so use of springs etc not possible.
Boat is 2017 Jeanneau 389.
Yes we use the BT for short burst so I guess we must be complete numpties that panic during the operation.
Funny that as the owner of a mobo we berthed next to recently commented on my handling of the boat "you've done that a few times then"
High freeboard, flattish hull profile, saildrive some distance from rudder and zero prop walk, strong wind and tide can make things interesting

 

[Highland Bear]

I don't have much trouble going astern in my 42DS. It's fitted with a Gori 3 blade folding prop on a shaft. I do use the bow thruster as well on occasions as the home berth is north/south and the wind usually does that prevailing west thingy and as we're usually just 2 handed, every little helps! Keeps SWMBO happier too.

The BT is used mainly to counter the wind blowing the bow the wrong way at low speed when starting to go astern or to keep the boat snug against the pontoon whilst the wife gets the bow line secure.

 

[wully1]

That's ridiculous! In skilled hands, bow thrusters are invaluable aids.

In skilled hands bow thrusters are not required....

 

[pvb]

In skilled hands bow thrusters are not required....

And that's equally ridiculous!

 

[lpdsn]

An argument about bow thrusters will be a refreshing change from anchors or my-country's-lifeboats-are-better-than-yours, but the're arguments both ways.

I admit the sound of a bowthruster will make me stick my head up. Not to say it demonstrates incompetence but it does get my mind thinking about what I may have to do to fend off until such time as it looks like there's nothing to worry about.

And I choose not to have a bow thruster because the sailing qualities of my boat are one of the things I enjoy the most and I wouldn't want to detract from that. But that's not to say that every now and then a bow thruster wouldn't make my life easier. Of course it is possible to handle boats without them, but you sometimes have to think things through a lot harder and the margins of error can be smaller, especially when you're depending upon an unpredictable crew member to make it work.

I'm sure if I had one I'd use it, if only to see how many heads pop up in the marina.

 

[rotrax]

Interesting - what boat do you have and do you berth bow or stern to? Our larger boat is in the Med so it's always stern to and I think that helps a lot.

We have an Island Packet SP Cruiser. She was chosen for the ease of getting aboard, and moving around when onboard plus the huge pilothouse giving really good vision when aboard.

If using a finger berth, coming in stern first is great. To get on and off from the pilothouse just requires stepping down a shallow step into the rear cockpit through the almost full size door, opening the gate onto the swim platform, another shallow step, then up onto the dock or pontoon.

When alongside, the same easy on and off, but from the side of the swim platform. No more climbing up and down the freeboard!

She has serious prop walk to port, so we use this to pull the stern in.

We suffer from bad knees and a dodgy hip respectively, this boat should keep us sailing a few years longer.

 

[pvb]

I admit the sound of a bowthruster will make me stick my head up. Not to say it demonstrates incompetence but it does get my mind thinking about what I may have to do to fend off until such time as it looks like there's nothing to worry about.

I have the same reaction to the prop noise of frantic reversing! For some inexplicable reason, the marina I'm in is happy to let sailing school boats in to "practise berthing". What a nightmare! Yesterday, there was one boat with a group of youngsters on it careering around the marina all day, with many loud reversing noises.

Of course it is possible to handle boats without them, but you sometimes have to think things through a lot harder and the margins of error can be smaller, especially when you're depending upon an unpredictable crew member to make it work.

If you regularly single-hand, it's an even more important consideration. With my old long-keel HR352, I could happily single-hand it in most conditions without a bowthruster. My current, fairly skittish, AWB would be much more challenging to single-hand if I hadn't specified a bowthruster.

 

[maby]

In skilled hands bow thrusters are not required....

There will always be manoeuvres which are only possible with the use of a bow thruster - it will allow you to make tighter turns than the same boat could without it. If you never attempt those manoeuvres, then you never need a bow thruster!

 

[flaming]

I have the same reaction to the prop noise of frantic reversing! For some inexplicable reason, the marina I'm in is happy to let sailing school boats in to "practise berthing". What a nightmare! Yesterday, there was one boat with a group of youngsters on it careering around the marina all day, with many loud reversing noises.

How do you propose that people learn how to berth unless they are allowed to practice? Especially under the supervision of an instructor?

For what it's worth I've never sailed a modern boat that I thought needed a bow thruster. I've sailed a few that have had them, and I have used them, but I don't think I've yet encountered one that I felt really needed it, i.e couldn't be reliably berthed without it. Every modern boat I've sailed has been predictable and relatively handy under power. Even the OP's example I would class as predictable. Propwalk is not necessarily a bad thing if you know you're getting it...

All of that said.... I wouldn't tell someone that they shouldn't have a bowthruster. I'd normally recommend some instruction before splashing out on one, but if it makes someone more confident in what is (for most cruisers) the most stressful part of the sail, then that has to be a good thing.