42DS reversing performance

flaming said:
How do you propose that people learn how to berth unless they are allowed to practice? Especially under the supervision of an instructor?

For what it's worth I've never sailed a modern boat that I thought needed a bow thruster. I've sailed a few that have had them, and I have used them, but I don't think I've yet encountered one that I felt really needed it, i.e couldn't be reliably berthed without it. Every modern boat I've sailed has been predictable and relatively handy under power. Even the OP's example I would class as predictable. Propwalk is not necessarily a bad thing if you know you're getting it...

All of that said.... I wouldn't tell someone that they shouldn't have a bowthruster. I'd normally recommend some instruction before splashing out on one, but if it makes someone more confident in what is (for most cruisers) the most stressful part of the sail, then that has to be a good thing.
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^^ bang on the money as usual Flaming.....
 
I have a big(ish) boat with a shaft prop and I tend to find that I need to give the engine a good chunk of revs for about 5 seconds just to get the boat moving and get some water over the rudder, then knock the engine back and it steers backwards fine.

I find that a good blast of astern gives less walk overall than trying to tickle it along.
 
Bobc said:
I have a big(ish) boat with a shaft prop and I tend to find that I need to give the engine a good chunk of revs for about 5 seconds just to get the boat moving and get some water over the rudder, then knock the engine back and it steers backwards fine.

I find that a good blast of astern gives less walk overall than trying to tickle it along.
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I'm sure you are right, and my routine is similar. On the other hand, if Father Christmas gives me one of the new HRs with twin rudders and a single saildrive I just might be persuaded to sink my pride and order a BT, though I'd rather have a steerable prop.
 
pvb said:
I have the same reaction to the prop noise of frantic reversing! For some inexplicable reason, the marina I'm in is happy to let sailing school boats in to "practise berthing". What a nightmare! Yesterday, there was one boat with a group of youngsters on it careering around the marina all day, with many loud reversing noises.
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I heard an instructor once said to a marina: "you can let me train them properly or I'll give them the certificate anyway and they can come in on their own."

It's not a risk I face as I think I'm at least 60 miles away from the nearest school. I have however had my boat damaged by the sort of numpty who is strongly encouraged on here to just buy the boat and bounce around the marina till he eventually gets the hang of it.
 
I don't have a bow thruster on my boat and don't think having one would be an improvement as she handles well in tight situations using the engine and the rudder. However, I have handled boats that are difficult or impossible to manoeuvre without a bow thruster: I had the complacency knocked out of me on discovering one really wouldn't answer to the helm in reverse at all. You had to align her using forward drive over the rudder before reversing on that line. Turning the bow thruster on was a revelation!

So, I think that it's a case of horses for course. Some boats need them, others don't and equally, some some people need them and others don't. Never loose any sleep on the topic other than when the afternoon torpor in an anchorage is disturbed by some person using a thruster to turn a boat rather than using the rudder......
 
johnalison said:
I'm sure you are right, and my routine is similar. On the other hand, if Father Christmas gives me one of the new HRs with twin rudders and a single saildrive I just might be persuaded to sink my pride and order a BT, though I'd rather have a steerable prop.
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A bow thruster is much more effective as its in the right place. Also a steerable prop is another complexity to an already complex saildrive drive train.
A bow thruster can get you out of a sticky situation in a tight marina.
 
maby said:
There will always be manoeuvres which are only possible with the use of a bow thruster - it will allow you to make tighter turns than the same boat could without it. If you never attempt those manoeuvres, then you never need a bow thruster!
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And if you are able to do them without a bow thruster - I can't conceive of tighter space and more awkward turns than some Med marinas or quays and none have needed a bow thruster although I can imagine a long keeper would be very limited. It might be worth asking somebody used to park without one to show you how they would do it.
 
flaming said:
How do you propose that people learn how to berth unless they are allowed to practice? Especially under the supervision of an instructor?

For what it's worth I've never sailed a modern boat that I thought needed a bow thruster. I've sailed a few that have had them, and I have used them, but I don't think I've yet encountered one that I felt really needed it, i.e couldn't be reliably berthed without it. Every modern boat I've sailed has been predictable and relatively handy under power. Even the OP's example I would class as predictable. Propwalk is not necessarily a bad thing if you know you're getting it...

All of that said.... I wouldn't tell someone that they shouldn't have a bowthruster. I'd normally recommend some instruction before splashing out on one, but if it makes someone more confident in what is (for most cruisers) the most stressful part of the sail, then that has to be a good thing.
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Happy for them to practise in deserted areas of the marina, but when they're rushing around in a seemingly uncontrolled manner it makes me rather annoyed. Just last year a sailing school boat smashed across the bows of the boat in the next berth to me. It would have been my boat except mine was a couple of feet shorter. The "instructor" promptly started to exit the marina, and my radio call to the marina control enabled them to get the sailing school's insurance details. I pay many thousands a year for a supposedly safe berth in a marina; I don't think it's reasonable for this to be compromised by school boats which pay peanuts.

And if you've never sailed a modern boat which you thought needed a bowthruster I can only imagine that you ever sail with lots of crew and in benign conditions!
 
Malo37 said:
A bow thruster is much more effective as its in the right place. Also a steerable prop is another complexity to an already complex saildrive drive train.
A bow thruster can get you out of a sticky situation in a tight marina.
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That's not the point. There are several things on modern boats that I object to on purely aesthetic grounds. Bow thrusters are one, as are stack-pack mains, plumb stems and twin wheels. This is not to say that they may not be useful to less discriminating people, just that I prefer to do without them.
 
johnalison said:
That's not the point. There are several things on modern boats that I object to on purely aesthetic grounds. Bow thrusters are one, as are stack-pack mains, plumb stems and twin wheels. This is not to say that they may not be useful to less discriminating people, just that I prefer to do without them.
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Hope you never want to upgrade to a new HR340, it has a plumb stem (described by HR as an "upright bow for contemporary appearance").
 
johnalison said:
That's not the point. There are several things on modern boats that I object to on purely aesthetic grounds. Bow thrusters are one, as are stack-pack mains, plumb stems and twin wheels. This is not to say that they may not be useful to less discriminating people, just that I prefer to do without them.
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Yeh, I get to tick the full list - and very happy with both the aesthetics and function of our boat.
Not sure how a bow thruster impacts the aesthetics - but ours is retractable so out of sight and out of the water flow, plus immersed deeper when needed, so ideal.

Each to their own
 
NormanB said:
It’s a Sailing boat - why have an engine anyway - in skilled hands easy to sail to the berth!
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I prefer to try, but there always seem to be twitchy folk about with roaming fenders so I have to conform to expectations. It's a shame as I'm getting out of practice.

Edit: forgot to say that my 35DS has significant prop walk to port but it's useful because I know it has it. I park according to the conditions, if tide/wind/boat say nose in I'll do it. If benign and tide/wind/boat say arse in, I prefer that. If/when I have crew I take that into account too.
 
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Rob_Webb said:
Did a sea-trial today in a Jeanneau 42DS and was very disappointed by reversing performance.

Lots of prop walk (kicked stern to port) and very poor bite even at high revs e.g. 3000.

Apparently it's a 3-bladed folding Volvo prop.

Any views / experience / ideas?

Thanks
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To get back to OPs specific query about the 42DS. I've had a 42DS since 2009 and always thought reversing performance was very good. A lot of revs. to get going but no noticeable prop. walk. Pressure on wheel does build up quickly if going too fast as it isn't a balanced rudder, but fine at normal reversing speed. I have the standard fixed 3 bladed prop. so folding prop. might be the cause. Unfortunately, I've never sailed a 42DS with a folding prop. You could ask on Jeanneau owners forum.

I rarely use the bow thruster as I'm usually at anchor and try to remember the odd blast when anchoring to reduce fouling inside the tunnel. Bow thruster has been useful coming alongside a couple of times. I usually spring off when leaving so thruster not required.
 
I have a beneteau Cyclades 43 shaft drive no bowthrust and have to reverse into a very tight berth with a 90 degree turn at the last minute with a couple of feet to spare either side. I found the trick is to overcum prop walk is to leave plenty of room for going astern, usually takes 3 boat lengths at least to stop it and when it does steers perfectly and at dead slow revs. I cant see the logical reason for this but it works.
 
I don't think anyone should be allowed to moor in a Marina without a bow thruster!!! - oops does that sound as though I am as knowledgeable as all of those who object to boats with bow thrusters because THEY don't need one???

To answer the original OP - I have a 45DS with a propshaft and a Gori folding prop. It reverses beautifully and I rarely need to use the bow thruster (but sometimes do - no doubt scaring other boat owners around me!!!). We normally go stern too so that we can step off the back. Before the folding prop she did kick to port but that just assisted us in our (then) permanent berth. I am surprised at the lack of drive but don't know the Volvo prop.

As with any boat, once you know it's characteristics you moor up accordingly (obviously not using the speed log, chart plotter, depth gauge, wheel , bow thruster, wind instruments or any other new fangled sailing paraphernalia that REAL sailors don't need...)
 
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NormanB said:
It’s a Sailing boat - why have an engine anyway - in skilled hands easy to sail to the berth!
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What an absolute load of tosh.

I remember the warping posts in Ramsgate Harbour when I was a kid-5 or 6-and sailing vessels using the dinghy and warps to pull the boat, usually a barge, into the harbour.

What you say rolls of the tongue easily. With todays pressure on time and the need to earn ones crust, waiting for a favorable wind and tide is not always possible for a leisure sailor.

I would love to see you trying to sail into Portsmouth Harbour entrance in anything but perfect wind conditions against a spring ebb.

With a 38HP yanmar on full rattle I have been down to under I knot!

If you offered Columbus or Drake an engine, do you really think they would have turned it down?

Are you a Luddite, by any chance?

Warping posts long gone, so how does an engineless sail boat manage now when the pro's struggled?
 
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