40ft boat and marina fees

Sailfree said:
Mountain Goat.

We are all above average car drivers but anti lock brakes and radar distance control makes us even safer.

Yes I take pride in berthing sweetly and as I have a rear step off platform at stern usually berth stern to in a marina. However not everyone is above average and yes there are numpties (often those that shout at SWMBOs/crew) but I reiterate I don't mind how much they use a bow thruster to assist berthing providing they do it safely.
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I can't help feeling the point is being deliberately missed.

Let's say you activate ABS every time you brake, on dry roads in good visibility, even when parking in a supermarket car park.

Should other drivers be worried about you in snow in the dark? I know I would be.
 
MountainGoat said:
Pontoon bashing - getting your boat on and off a pontoon, the art of approaching, manoeuvring in a confined space, understanding the effects of current, wind, power etc. on the boat and how it will respond. Rope handling techniques, etc.. The sort of thing they spend a long time teaching on RYA courses.

Conditions - weather, current, swell, tiredness of crew, etc.

Benign - unthreatening, at or close to their best.

Therefore - someone who can't pontoon bash when conditions are benign = someone who has no clue how to manoeuvre their boat in a marina. I'm sure you've seen them - gaggle of people on deck, running about with ropes and (if you're lucky) fenders, boat hooks, etc, skipper expecting the boat to turn like a car and being surprised again and again when, every time, it doesn't. Arrival announced by repeated whirring of the bow thruster. Often draws a crowd of people who try to catch their lines and pull them in. Usually hits the pontoon with their bow, etc.
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Nope, still don't understand your use of English. "Can't" says that when conditions are benign they CAN NOT bash a pontoon. Why would they want to?

Oh hang on, you think that pontoon bashing is a positive achievement that is taught, whereas I see it as a negative thing as it damages boats.

Never mind.
 
MountainGoat said:
I can't help feeling the point is being deliberately missed.

Let's say you activate ABS every time you brake, on dry roads in good visibility, even when parking in a supermarket car park.

Should other drivers be worried about you in snow in the dark? I know I would be.
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No, the point is not being missed - just that it is not the one you are trying to make.

You are extrapolating from a small issue that might affect a small number of people and making out that it is sytemic. That seems to fit your prejudices so perhaps you are unable to see that it the weakness of your position. You make all sorts of assumptions about other people just on the basis of one single observation and assume that you know why they had difficulties that particular time while ignoring, as I said earlier all the berthing episodes that go to plan - and even admitting that you are not perfect - just like the rest of us.
 
Tranona said:
No, the point is not being missed - just that it is not the one you are trying to make.

You are extrapolating from a small issue that might affect a small number of people and making out that it is sytemic. That seems to fit your prejudices so perhaps you are unable to see that it the weakness of your position. You make all sorts of assumptions about other people just on the basis of one single observation and assume that you know why they had difficulties that particular time while ignoring, as I said earlier all the berthing episodes that go to plan - and even admitting that you are not perfect - just like the rest of us.
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Certainly appears like a prejudice. 'Nobody should start off with a boat bigger than mine syndrome. I once had similar thoughts way back in the mist of time but when I bought bigger realised often it was much easier not harder to handle. OH and the only time a boat of mine was damaged whilst in it's berth was by a Yachtmaster instructor from a well known sailing school that crushed the stern ladder on our then W33 whilst teaching a bunch of trainees how to park a boat in a crowded spot with a bit of wind blowing. Bugger even denied he had done it too, but witnesses from his çrew' blabbed ..
 
Daydream believer said:
Would there be a excess & loss of NCB if the other party's insurance had to stump up?
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No, but that wasn't made clear in MG's post, hence the question which he has now answered although I'm still not certain whether insurers were involved. My point being that many berthing "dings" are sorted without a claim so premiums are unaffected.
I'm surprised a marina acted as intermdiary in what appears to be a straightforward claim in which they were not involved in any way.
 
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Tranona said:
You are extrapolating from a small issue that might affect a small number of people and making out that it is sytemic. That seems to fit your prejudices so perhaps you are unable to see that it the weakness of your position.
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Um, Parklife?

I'm not interested in engaging in some sort of rhetorical flourishing contest here. I'm just concerned at the number of people I've seen coming into marinas in increasingly big boats which they are clearly unable to control under power.
 
Quiddle said:
I'm surprised a marina acted as intermdiary in what appears to be a straightforward claim in which they were not involved in any way.
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The marina's boatyard did the repair work. In this instance, the skipper responsible kindly agreed to have them send him the bill. I don't know if he made an insurance claim or not.
 
Gladys said:
What happens when new boat owner tries to berth in conditions that are beyond the ability of the bow thruster to cope?
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If they can't cope with a bow thruster it would have been even worse without!

So it's damage/difficult with the aid of bowthruster and its even more difficult without. Perhaps if damage ensues it's a question of £1000 without bowthrusted and £300 with bow thruster.
 
laika said:
Isn't it well established forum fact that the best way to learn to sail a 12+m boat is by doing dinghy sailing?
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Not necessarily.

A 40' boat has little resemblance to say a topper dinghy.

A dinghy can be sailed as badly as as a larger boat.

IMHO it's good to learn first to windsurf to feel the wind direction and strength on you cheeks.

Next yes a dinghy but one with 2 sails and the controls similar to a big boat. Eg out haul, kicker, halyard tensions and cunning ham. Secondly to learn to sail well you need to race that way you learn the best sail setting and direction of sailing for best velocity made good in the direction you want to go. For this reason we bought and raced a Wayfarer.

Even after all this you can still sail a big boat badly!
 
Sailfree said:
Not necessarily.
A 40' boat has little resemblance to say a topper dinghy.
A dinghy can be sailed as badly as as a larger boat.
IMHO it's good to learn first to windsurf to feel the wind direction and strength on you cheeks.
Next yes a dinghy but one with 2 sails and the controls similar to a big boat. Eg out haul, kicker, halyard tensions and cunning ham. Secondly to learn to sail well you need to race that way you learn the best sail setting and direction of sailing for best velocity made good in the direction you want to go. For this reason we bought and raced a Wayfarer.
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Winsurfing is irrelevant to cruiser sailing, but dinghy sailing certainly teaches one to handle sails. However, A good dinghy sailor does not necessarily make a good skipper in a marina situation.
Handling a cruiser is really based on how one thinks. Some are more mechanically minded & can easily understand & visualise the " mechanics" ( for want of a better term) of berthing; some cannot & for them it is harder to learn.

One point I have noticed in my marina ( my berth is next to 2 visitors berths) is that when things start to go wrong the skipper seems to just make things worse. Instead of acknowledging they have started off on the wrong foot & backing out & stating again they will carry on & get into even worse situations. problems can be easily averted early on by starting again & learning from a faulty approach & having another go. I have done it a couple of times & it is better than doing damage. Quite often, being single handed, I find people see what ii am doing & will actually come & catch a line for me thus making it easier as well.
 
Sailfree said:
Agree MDL measure each boat...
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Curiously though, the MDL marina that is Sant Carles operate on a 10% over basis for berthing. With a 12.4 metre plus windvane I measured at 13.1 which still allowed me to use a 12m berth. They started measuring after too many folk were taking the p...

In marinas with narrow fairways, whether thats fingers or slime lines on med berths, I'm happy to pay for the actual length to give me room to manouevre. However, given I'm 3.8 beam I havent yet found anywhere that gives a rebate for being narrow :)
 
Daydream Believer - if you ever raced a dinghy you would soon learn how good windsurfers are in spotting wind shifts and best area to sail to get max speed. This is very noticeable in dinghy and is transferable to bigger boats.

Many of my crew are friends I have made through Wayfarer competitions. I could come on deck and soon know who had set up the sails.

There are advantages to know how to sail fast and well but most important is to enjoy it and all captains abilities vary but let's encourage them for wanting to share our sport with us than criticise because they use a bow thruster .
 
Sailfree said:
If they can't cope with a bow thruster it would have been even worse without!

So it's damage/difficult with the aid of bowthruster and its even more difficult without. Perhaps if damage ensues it's a question of £1000 without bowthrusted and £300 with bow thruster.
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Not quite the point I was trying to make... I have a friend who bought a 38' boat without any boating background, and he had a bowthruster from new, but became absolutely dependent on it. The first time he tried it in 25 knots, it wouldn't deliver the results he was looking for. As was said earlier, it's a bit like (but not as extreme) a card driver epending on ABS
 
on the subject of bowthrusters - if you start cycling with stabiliser wheels, does it mean you have to use them forever? For myself i would assume it merely lowers the learning curve, and in the longer run provides an aid and crutch in times of difficulty?

and the windsurfing issue - is cutting the edge of the performance envelope so important?
 
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