40 feet sailboat, liveaboard, Med tour, and more if affinity ;-)

[BarryWhite]

As others have said, you will spend at least half your purchase price over again on repairs and improvements to a boat of that age. Possibly more. I spend at least the same as the original pourchase price of my 40 year old 10m boat on fitting her out and some basic repairs. But you don't have to spend it all at once, especially if the rudder, engine, mast, rigging, sails, hatches and structure are sound.
Or, as my friend who re-registered his boat under 12m did, wait for an impeccably kept boat to come on the market as a distressed sale. He told me that he bought his last two boats in Sardinia from a retired German doctor and a dentist, both of whom were getting too old to manage their boats any longer. Then he sold them at a profit after cruising for a year in each. Best kept boats he has ever come across, he says. Having seen one, I believe him ?

That's a good plan. I will have a look in the Med ;-)

 

[BarryWhite]

I used to race a Sun Legende out of the Hamble in the late 80's - the owners then bought a Sun Charm but it wasn't raced so not sailed on one. Seem to remember it was more cruising orientated with a longitudinal galley.

Thanks. True that a longitudinal galley is less practical....

 

[Tranona]

Thanks. True that a longitudinal galley is less practical....

Might be if you are sailing long periods offshore, although many will disagree even then, but not if you are a liveaboard cruiser in the Med, which is what you seem to want.

There are two broad approaches to choosing a boat for liveaboards. One, which seems to be the one you are following is to buy a boat you desire based on your past experiences which seem to be the performance offshore cruiser and adapt to a different role, and the second is to identify what the requirements are for that style of cruising and choose a boat that meets them as closely as possible. The two approaches inevitably end up with a different result.

 

[BarryWhite]

Might be if you are sailing long periods offshore, although many will disagree even then, but not if you are a liveaboard cruiser in the Med, which is what you seem to want.

There are two broad approaches to choosing a boat for liveaboards. One, which seems to be the one you are following is to buy a boat you desire based on your past experiences which seem to be the performance offshore cruiser and adapt to a different role, and the second is to identify what the requirements are for that style of cruising and choose a boat that meets them as closely as possible. The two approaches inevitably end up with a different result.

Thank you for you reply.

I'm curious, could you share with me the benefits of a longitudinal galley ?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I used to race a Sun Legende out of the Hamble in the late 80's - the owners then bought a Sun Charm but it wasn't raced so not sailed on one. Seem to remember it was more cruising orientated with a longitudinal galley.

I owned a Suncharm 39 ,its the same as the Sun fast but with a wing keel .Good boat

 

[RupertW]

Thanks. True that a longitudinal galley is less practical....

My wife had two must haves which I didn’t quite understand when looking for a boat in 2010 for the Med. Two heads and a longitudinal galley. I completely get it now.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you for you reply.

I'm curious, could you share with me the benefits of a longitudinal galley ?

Longitudinal galleys make sense in some situations. The two most common are in a walkway to an aft cabin in a centre cockpit boat and the second and probably more common in a boat where there is an aft loo, chart table and entrance to the aft cabin(s) at the foot of the companionway. This starts to work around 12m length and 3.8m beam where in the centre part of the boat there is room for a C or L shaped dining are on one side, centre line seat and galley on the other side. The galley space is often greater than an L shaped further aft, both in worktop space and storage and 2 people can work at a time if necessary.

As I have said before about boat choices which you prefer depends on how you are using the boat, and liveaboards tend to spend more time at anchor or tied up than sailing and many (like Rupert and his wife and myself) having experience of both prefer the longitudinal style. However as I suggested at the start it is not a decision taken in isolation as it depends first on the size and shape of the boat and then how you want to use the space overall. My last boat was marginal at 11m *3.6m as the centreline bench was small and it was all a bit tight, but the galley was very usable for space. It was built like that because it had 2 aft cabins for charter work. The single aft cabin version, because the loo could be moved further aft had an L shaped galley and where the old galley was 2 arm chairs and a little table which worked very well for a 2 person crew.

Once you move up the size range further options open up and a 13m*4m boat like an old style Bavaria 42 the longitudinal galley becomes U shaped . Go down in size and L shaped become almost universal because you don't have the beam or the length to fit both a longitudinal galley and decent seating area in the middle of the boat.

The preference for L and C shaped galleys close to the companionway often comes from peoples' past experience because that is what was common in older narrower boats. There is an argument that they are better for cooking at sea, but my experience is that I had no problem in that respect with my old boat and on balance think it the right choice for the type of Med cruising that I did. Equally my new boat is a bit smaller and has a single aft cabin and an L shaped galley. Works well for my current coastal hopping type sailing, but I would miss the layout of the old boat if I went back to Med cruising.

Hope this helps.

 

[RupertW]

Thank you for you reply.

I'm curious, could you share with me the benefits of a longitudinal galley ?

It’s all the things above but the main things for us are being away from wind/rain/waves of the open hatch and traffic to cabins and aft heads, having a long continuous set of surfaces and available cupboards at eye level with sinks, fridge and cooker part of that, and being in a narrow corridor with the long wooden back to the centre settee propping you on either tack and never risking getting more seasick by turning around as everything you need is straight opposite you as you slide forwards and backwards along the wooden back.

 

[BarryWhite]

It’s all the things above but the main things for us are being away from wind/rain/waves of the open hatch and traffic to cabins and aft heads, having a long continuous set of surfaces and available cupboards at eye level with sinks, fridge and cooker part of that, and being in a narrow corridor with the long wooden back to the centre settee propping you on either tack and never risking getting more seasick by turning around as everything you need is straight opposite you as you slide forwards and backwards along the wooden back.

Well, your explanation are slowly changing my mindset. I will now also consider a Sun Charm 39 ;-)

 

[BarryWhite]

Longitudinal galleys make sense in some situations. The two most common are in a walkway to an aft cabin in a centre cockpit boat and the second and probably more common in a boat where there is an aft loo, chart table and entrance to the aft cabin(s) at the foot of the companionway. This starts to work around 12m length and 3.8m beam where in the centre part of the boat there is room for a C or L shaped dining are on one side, centre line seat and galley on the other side. The galley space is often greater than an L shaped further aft, both in worktop space and storage and 2 people can work at a time if necessary.

As I have said before about boat choices which you prefer depends on how you are using the boat, and liveaboards tend to spend more time at anchor or tied up than sailing and many (like Rupert and his wife and myself) having experience of both prefer the longitudinal style. However as I suggested at the start it is not a decision taken in isolation as it depends first on the size and shape of the boat and then how you want to use the space overall. My last boat was marginal at 11m *3.6m as the centreline bench was small and it was all a bit tight, but the galley was very usable for space. It was built like that because it had 2 aft cabins for charter work. The single aft cabin version, because the loo could be moved further aft had an L shaped galley and where the old galley was 2 arm chairs and a little table which worked very well for a 2 person crew.

Once you move up the size range further options open up and a 13m*4m boat like an old style Bavaria 42 the longitudinal galley becomes U shaped . Go down in size and L shaped become almost universal because you don't have the beam or the length to fit both a longitudinal galley and decent seating area in the middle of the boat.

The preference for L and C shaped galleys close to the companionway often comes from peoples' past experience because that is what was common in older narrower boats. There is an argument that they are better for cooking at sea, but my experience is that I had no problem in that respect with my old boat and on balance think it the right choice for the type of Med cruising that I did. Equally my new boat is a bit smaller and has a single aft cabin and an L shaped galley. Works well for my current coastal hopping type sailing, but I would miss the layout of the old boat if I went back to Med cruising.

Hope this helps.

Well, your explanation are slowly changing my mindset. I will now also consider a Sun Charm 39 and other boats with a longitudinal galley ;-)

 

[BarryWhite]

I owned a Suncharm 39 ,its the same as the Sun fast but with a wing keel .Good boat

Hello, did you had the chance to compare the Suncharm 39 with other boats from the same era like Sun Fizz, Sun Legende, First 38, First 405 ?

 

[BarryWhite]

Of course. My first thoughts of going to the Med were in mid 1990s - kids finished university, good few years to retirement so enough time to get there and become established for living aboard - not full time but enough to make it worth keeping a boat out there. Like many at that time top of the list of boats would be a Moody , Westerly etc and take time to get down there - round the outside or the canals. Part of the planning was to try different boats through chartering - first a 32 Bene - way too small, second a Moody 37 (top of the list sitting in UK) - nowhere to sunbathe, difficult for swimming, awkward to berth stern to but lovely and cosy down below. Next year a Bavaria 42. What a revelation. Spacious, open airy, went where you wanted it to go, big cockpit (6 of us on board) and so on. Next year bought a 37 which we kept there for 10 years. Chartered out for the first 7 then holidays for a couple of years. For various reasons staying out there longer became impossible, so I sailed it to Spain and then truck back to the UK. Later swapped it for a new 33 but that is a different story.

What did I learn? Priorities for the boat are lots of shade, ventilation, big fridge, big reliable engine (you do a lot of motoring if you want to see places) big battery bank, large fuel and water capacity, open back cockpit and bathing platform, good anchor and gear particularly the windlass, simple accessible domestics systems. As you can see little about electronics (except an autopilot) sails and deck gear and very different from what makes some of your boats on your original list like the Sigma such good boats - for the usage David Thomas designed them for. Of course there are boats like your original list in the Med, but mostly taken there by their owners because that is what they had or was available at the time.

However, from around 1995 designs shifted towards the Med market, driven partly by the explosion in the charter business - Bene Oceanis, SOs, Bavaria cruisers etc all of which were less sailing performance orientated and more biased towards comfortable living in hot weather. So, where does that leave you and how can you get the best boat for the job. First thing is don't buy a boat in the UK - it will cost minimum £10k to equip it for the trip on top of fixing the broken bits. Second you will have to pay EU Vat to avoid the 18 month restrictions unless you are able to hop in and out of EU waters regularly. So that points to buying out there. The best places to buy are Spain Croatia and Greece, because they have the big boat populations and many are owned by non residents who can be anxious to escape from owning a boat! The other advantage is they will be equipped for the environment, but offset by the fact that the Med is hard on boats, particularly externals such as canvas work and wood trim and domestic systems. The basic structures are usually not an issue - the stuff talked about older boats being better built does not wash with me. The hulls may be thicker and the woodwork maybe heftier - but that is not what costs for maintenance. What you often get is obsolete domestic system, inaccessible seacocks, rubbish electrical systems and so on - all 30+ years old. Look at the logs on youtube or the forums such as the Bavaria one and you will find a constant stream of maintenance of boring things like loos, water systems, fridges, engines, lights, cookers and so on - the things that get more use in a year of liveaboard (or chartering) than most private weekend boats in their lifetime. Most of this gear, even the higher quality stuff was never designed for heavy use, so a boat with well known modern domestic gear is a must.

In my view you can't get a decent workable boat of that size for your budget unless you are prepared to spend all your time fixing it. Even though it is in the sun in nice places is that what you want? Personally I would look at early mid 2000s boats from Beneteau, (361, 373 etc) Jeanneau SO37 Bavaria 36 or 38 and probably ex charter, particularly if buying in Greece or Croatia. You get good title and boats are generally well equipped and have a maintenance history. However you need to budget £60k plus. If you do want to keep down to your lower figure then the trade off is a smaller boat (which limits the choice) or an older boat with all the issues I suggested above. Just to give you some encouragement I sold my 37 in 2015 and in total it cost the new owner less than £50k to buy and bring up to tip top condition and take it back to Spain.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for those details. Well I'm starting to shift my mind ;-)

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Hello, did you had the chance to compare the Suncharm 39 with other boats from the same era like Sun Fizz, Sun Legende, First 38, First 405 ?

It had a more modern feel to it compared Sun fizz ,Sun legends ,Olympic sea. Iknew nothing about First 38 .I had a Sun magic 44 after ,probably the better boat. Then a big rig First 45 now thats a boat . I now have a caravan Ben 461.

 

[BarryWhite]

It had a more modern feel to it compared Sun fizz ,Sun legends ,Olympic sea. Iknew nothing about First 38 .I had a Sun magic 44 after ,probably the better boat. Then a big rig First 45 now thats a boat . I now have a caravan Ben 461.

Thank you !!!!

We have a view on Sun Magic 44 too, which gets a lot of positive reviews. Prices seems fair, around 50K euro.
We are wondering how is cost for maintenance for this 13.5 meters long / 10 tons boat compared to a boat like a Sun Charm 39 which is 11.99 meters / 6.5 tons. About marinas, I've heard it really depends from country to country, like in Greece 2 eur per meter.

About what you write about the First 45, do you mean 45 or 405 ? Did you own one? Would you recommend it compared to the others?

Thank you for your help

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Thank you !!!!

We have a view on Sun Magic 44 too, which gets a lot of positive reviews. Prices seems fair, around 50K euro.
We are wondering how is cost for maintenance for this 13.5 meters long / 10 tons boat compared to a boat like a Sun Charm 39 which is 11.99 meters / 6.5 tons. About marinas, I've heard it really depends from country to country, like in Greece 2 eur per meter.

Thank you for your help

Lots of good Sun magics about , You will get a good one for €40000.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you !!!!

We have a view on Sun Magic 44 too, which gets a lot of positive reviews. Prices seems fair, around 50K euro.
We are wondering how is cost for maintenance for this 13.5 meters long / 10 tons boat compared to a boat like a Sun Charm 39 which is 11.99 meters / 6.5 tons. About marinas, I've heard it really depends from country to country, like in Greece 2 eur per meter.

About what you write about the First 45, do you mean 45 or 405 ? Did you own one? Would you recommend it compared to the others?

Thank you for your help

Inevitably maintenance will be higher on a bigger boat - everything is bigger - sails, rig, deck gear, antifoul, lifts, storage or there are more things to go wrong - loos, lighting, pumps and so on. However in the short run the maintenance costs are as much a function of how good the boat is when you buy it.

In Greece 12m is the break point for cruising tax after which it jumps. For marina charges, some have higher rates per metre for over 12m, but this often reflects the scarcity of larger berths and the elasticity of demand - that is owners of larger boats are prepared to pay more!

As you will no doubt find out, boats below 12m can often sell for more than comparable larger boats which reflects the higher running costs.

 

[roblpm]

Another amazing First 38 story

Bagheera off the beaten track: From the Med to Brazil

 

[BarryWhite]

Inevitably maintenance will be higher on a bigger boat - everything is bigger - sails, rig, deck gear, antifoul, lifts, storage or there are more things to go wrong - loos, lighting, pumps and so on. However in the short run the maintenance costs are as much a function of how good the boat is when you buy it.

In Greece 12m is the break point for cruising tax after which it jumps. For marina charges, some have higher rates per metre for over 12m, but this often reflects the scarcity of larger berths and the elasticity of demand - that is owners of larger boats are prepared to pay more!

As you will no doubt find out, boats below 12m can often sell for more than comparable larger boats which reflects the higher running costs.

Thank you for you all your comments. It seems we better narrow down our search to a Sun Charm 39 / Sun Odyssey 39 / Sun Fast 39, which is the same boat. What is surprising is that they cost the same price as a Sun Magic 44... :-(

 

[BarryWhite]

Lots of good Sun magics about , You will get a good one for €40000.

Thanks! Well... with the other comments about costs it seems we better narrow our search to a boat which is less than 12 meters... :-(

What is your experience about costs?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Thanks! Well... with the other comments about costs it seems we better narrow our search to a boat which is less than 12 meters... :-(

What is your experience about costs?

You will probably be sorry , but, it's your choice .I pay no more for a 46 as I did with a 39 ..okay maybe occasionally ,however as you learn about places you visit ,you also learn how to keep costs down .