40 feet sailboat, liveaboard, Med tour, and more if affinity ;-)

[differentroads]

A small tip. Mediterranean marina berths are frequently priced in bands of 8 to 10m and 10 to 12m. Over 12m you usually pay the same as a 14m boat. So better to get a boat of 11.9m- 39 feet and not an inch more!
Or do as a friend of mine does. Register the boat as 11.95m even if it is a bit longer. The UK SSR doesn't check.
I don't need to cheat. I bought a 10m boat so I fit in 8-10m berths, sometimes with a bit of negotiation. As a couple we manage full time liveaboard just fine. Its an outdoors type of life in the Med ?

 

[KompetentKrew]

I spent a month crewing on a Sun Odyssey 37 in 2018, and thought her quite a decent boat, the Beneteau 393 I subsequently spent a couple of weeks on felt a little big bigger. I believe they're practically the same length, if you look them up on SailboatData, but the Beneteau's cockpit seemed roomier.

Not sure why you'd want a cruiser-racer for longterm cruising. I spend most of my time on autopilot.

 

[BarryWhite]

A small tip. Mediterranean marina berths are frequently priced in bands of 8 to 10m and 10 to 12m. Over 12m you usually pay the same as a 14m boat. So better to get a boat of 11.9m- 39 feet and not an inch more!
Or do as a friend of mine does. Register the boat as 11.95m even if it is a bit longer. The UK SSR doesn't check.
I don't need to cheat. I bought a 10m boat so I fit in 8-10m berths, sometimes with a bit of negotiation. As a couple we manage full time liveaboard just fine. Its an outdoors type of life in the Med ?

it is exactly why I want to stay below 12 meters

 

[BarryWhite]

I spent a month crewing on a Sun Odyssey 37 in 2018, and thought her quite a decent boat, the Beneteau 393 I subsequently spent a couple of weeks on felt a little big bigger. I believe they're practically the same length, if you look them up on SailboatData, but the Beneteau's cockpit seemed roomier.

Not sure why you'd want a cruiser-racer for longterm cruising. I spend most of my time on autopilot.

You are right. Usually cruiser - racer have a taller rig and a deeper keel. I was mentioning this for the boat of the '80s....

 

[differentroads]

As others have said, you will spend at least half your purchase price over again on repairs and improvements to a boat of that age. Possibly more. I spend at least the same as the original pourchase price of my 40 year old 10m boat on fitting her out and some basic repairs. But you don't have to spend it all at once, especially if the rudder, engine, mast, rigging, sails, hatches and structure are sound.
Or, as my friend who re-registered his boat under 12m did, wait for an impeccably kept boat to come on the market as a distressed sale. He told me that he bought his last two boats in Sardinia from a retired German doctor and a dentist, both of whom were getting too old to manage their boats any longer. Then he sold them at a profit after cruising for a year in each. Best kept boats he has ever come across, he says. Having seen one, I believe him ?

 

[BarryWhite]

ing seen one, I believe him ?

Thanks for the tip ! Through that in Italy you can find real bargains

 

[differentroads]

Thanks for the tip ! Through that in Italy you can find real bargains

This guy's facebook page often signposts to bargain boats in Scandinavia, France and the Med. Sailboats from 1000 EUR
Many are smaller and cheaper than you are looking for. Some are just right. His pdf guide to buying a cheap boat and sailing it from North Europe to the Med be be interesting to you

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for your comments ! The longest period I spend sailing in the Med was on a Sun Fizz for a period of one month. We were only 3 people onboard, so it was comfortable. The owner was traveling for 12 years on his boat. I remember that he advised to never exceed 40 feet to keep cost down.
I can understand that you have a lot of experience, maybe you want to share some more insights?

Of course. My first thoughts of going to the Med were in mid 1990s - kids finished university, good few years to retirement so enough time to get there and become established for living aboard - not full time but enough to make it worth keeping a boat out there. Like many at that time top of the list of boats would be a Moody , Westerly etc and take time to get down there - round the outside or the canals. Part of the planning was to try different boats through chartering - first a 32 Bene - way too small, second a Moody 37 (top of the list sitting in UK) - nowhere to sunbathe, difficult for swimming, awkward to berth stern to but lovely and cosy down below. Next year a Bavaria 42. What a revelation. Spacious, open airy, went where you wanted it to go, big cockpit (6 of us on board) and so on. Next year bought a 37 which we kept there for 10 years. Chartered out for the first 7 then holidays for a couple of years. For various reasons staying out there longer became impossible, so I sailed it to Spain and then truck back to the UK. Later swapped it for a new 33 but that is a different story.

What did I learn? Priorities for the boat are lots of shade, ventilation, big fridge, big reliable engine (you do a lot of motoring if you want to see places) big battery bank, large fuel and water capacity, open back cockpit and bathing platform, good anchor and gear particularly the windlass, simple accessible domestics systems. As you can see little about electronics (except an autopilot) sails and deck gear and very different from what makes some of your boats on your original list like the Sigma such good boats - for the usage David Thomas designed them for. Of course there are boats like your original list in the Med, but mostly taken there by their owners because that is what they had or was available at the time.

However, from around 1995 designs shifted towards the Med market, driven partly by the explosion in the charter business - Bene Oceanis, SOs, Bavaria cruisers etc all of which were less sailing performance orientated and more biased towards comfortable living in hot weather. So, where does that leave you and how can you get the best boat for the job. First thing is don't buy a boat in the UK - it will cost minimum £10k to equip it for the trip on top of fixing the broken bits. Second you will have to pay EU Vat to avoid the 18 month restrictions unless you are able to hop in and out of EU waters regularly. So that points to buying out there. The best places to buy are Spain Croatia and Greece, because they have the big boat populations and many are owned by non residents who can be anxious to escape from owning a boat! The other advantage is they will be equipped for the environment, but offset by the fact that the Med is hard on boats, particularly externals such as canvas work and wood trim and domestic systems. The basic structures are usually not an issue - the stuff talked about older boats being better built does not wash with me. The hulls may be thicker and the woodwork maybe heftier - but that is not what costs for maintenance. What you often get is obsolete domestic system, inaccessible seacocks, rubbish electrical systems and so on - all 30+ years old. Look at the logs on youtube or the forums such as the Bavaria one and you will find a constant stream of maintenance of boring things like loos, water systems, fridges, engines, lights, cookers and so on - the things that get more use in a year of liveaboard (or chartering) than most private weekend boats in their lifetime. Most of this gear, even the higher quality stuff was never designed for heavy use, so a boat with well known modern domestic gear is a must.

In my view you can't get a decent workable boat of that size for your budget unless you are prepared to spend all your time fixing it. Even though it is in the sun in nice places is that what you want? Personally I would look at early mid 2000s boats from Beneteau, (361, 373 etc) Jeanneau SO37 Bavaria 36 or 38 and probably ex charter, particularly if buying in Greece or Croatia. You get good title and boats are generally well equipped and have a maintenance history. However you need to budget £60k plus. If you do want to keep down to your lower figure then the trade off is a smaller boat (which limits the choice) or an older boat with all the issues I suggested above. Just to give you some encouragement I sold my 37 in 2015 and in total it cost the new owner less than £50k to buy and bring up to tip top condition and take it back to Spain.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bajansailor]

What did I learn? Priorities for the boat are lots of shade, ventilation, big fridge, big reliable engine (you do a lot of motoring if you want to see places) big battery bank, large fuel and water capacity, open back cockpit and bathing platform, good anchor and gear particularly the windlass, simple accessible domestics systems. As you can see little about electronics (except an autopilot) sails and deck gear and very different from what makes some of your boats on your original list like the Sigma such good boats - for the usage David Thomas designed them for. Of course there are boats like your original list in the Med, but mostly taken there by their owners because that is what they had or was available at the time.

Tranona has again summed it all up very well in his post above.

Re my quoted excerpt above - all of this would equally apply to other hot weather locations like the Caribbean.
I so often seen sailing yachts arrive out here and think that they are not very suitable for our latitudes, as they appear to be more intended for high latitudes cruising, with few deck hatches and opening ports, and the emphasis on living below rather than in an ergonomic bimini shaded cockpit.

 

[tjbrace]

I never saw a First 38 in two cabins
Is it the First 38 that was build till 1985, or is it the later one: the 38S5 with the Stark design ?

We’ve owned our First 38s5, Stark interior, for 15 seasons now. It’s the 3 sleeping cabins version with separate saloon and 1 head. Love it

 

[wully1]

I never saw a First 38 in two cabins
Is it the First 38 that was build till 1985, or is it the later one: the 38S5 with the Stark design ?

1984 custom factory built...

 

[Kelpie]

In my view you can't get a decent workable boat of that size for your budget unless you are prepared to spend all your time fixing it.

I broadly agree with what Tranona says but my own experience suggests he is a bit pessimstic on this last point.
We bought a late 70s Moody, three cabins, 39ft, for less than the OP's budget. We're only two years in, and so far have spent about ten weeks in total living aboard, so maybe it's simply too early for fault to show up. But in that time the things we've had to fix are:
Eberspacher packed in (replaced in an afternoon for a £90 Chinese one)
Fridge stopped working (bad power supply somewhere, ran a new wire and problem solved)
Second heads pump leaking (need to rebuild that when we get round to it)
Morse control seized (replaced with an identical model, £50 from eBay, will keep it better greased now!)

And that's it. Hardly a litany of large expensive jobs. We absolutely love the boat. I think the key was to buy from a knowledgeable owner who had cared for the boat. We will be spending some money on her this year, but that's mostly discretionary upgrades to suit our own needs.

 

[RJJ]

Thank you for your advice.
About the SunShine, I visited a refitted one in the Netherlands, unfortunately the standing headroom was too low for me It has been sold for 28K euro, a bargain!

About the Sun Magic 44, this is a beautiful boat. I'm just wondering if the extra 4 to 6 feet and 3 tons will not make it a much more costly boat in terms of maintenance, insurance and marina ?

I only mention the Sun Magic 44 because I had some experience with it and it's a big sister to the Sun Shine 38. Yes, the 44 will add significantly to your running costs and is outside the scope as you've described it.

 

[Tranona]

I broadly agree with what Tranona says but my own experience suggests he is a bit pessimstic on this last point.

I know you can buy such boats in the UK, however my remarks were directly related to buying in the Med - and a boat suitable for Med cruising/liveaboard. A 1970s Moody like yours is not high on the list if the Med is your long term objective for the reasons I listed, You can, indeed find many such boats in Spain and Greece particularly, taken there by their owners over the last 30 years or so, but most are not worth buying because they have been worn out by owners who increasingly don't have the money to keep them up to scratch. Once you have seen boats like that you would run a mile. Prices for UK buyers not helped by the exchange rate making boats 15% more expensive than they were 5 years ago. Look at the boats of the type I am suggesting (late 90s, early 2000s) in those countries and you will see the sort of prices (Vat paid) I quoted. Prices of similar boats in the UK are actually a bit lower, but by the time you have paid VAT to keep it permanently in the EU and kitted it out (bimini, upgraded electrics, arch, solar etc) most of which you will get already out there another £8-10k has slid out of the bank.

It is different if you are buying a boat for cruising starting in the UK rather than focusing specifically on liveaboard in the Med as the OP asked, but you will still need to spend on the things that make life comfortable if you want to spend time in hot places. As to bits wearing out and needing replacing, I can only refer you to the bavariayacht forum and see what people ask about (recent topics, water tank gauges, calorifier pipework, cooker failing to light, cabin lights, replacing windlass, leaking portlights), the big survey on the subject and the service record over the 7 years chartering on my 37. Bit quiet on the forum now because of the limitations on boay use, but once things open up if they do and people get back to their boats in the med, there will be a rush of "how do I fix this...." type threads.

 

[BarryWhite]

We’ve owned our First 38s5, Stark interior, for 15 seasons now. It’s the 3 sleeping cabins version with separate saloon and 1 head. Love it

Thank you ! May I ask you if you have a feeling of how strong is this 38S5 compared to earlier models ?

 

[tjbrace]

Thank you ! May I ask you if you have a feeling of how strong is this 38S5 compared to earlier models ?

Prior to this ship I owned a Jouet 920 and would say the First is better built and finished. Prior to that I briefly owned a First 32, That too was better built and finished than the Jouet.
As to strength, it’s not really been tested in my hands. We’ve seen a few trips in winds up to 38 kn and the boat was fine. Its previous owner kept it in Fecamp and sailed to south Brittany according to his gps waypoints.

 

[E39mad]

I only mention the Sun Magic 44 because I had some experience with it and it's a big sister to the Sun Shine 38. Yes, the 44 will add significantly to your running costs and is outside the scope as you've described it.

There is of course the Sun Legende 41 which sits in between these models. Great solid fast boats. Similar to the First 405 of the same vintage. An owners version for living aboard rather than 3 sleeping cabins + saloon is preferable.

Keeping it just under the 12m length to avoid those extra costs look at the 2 cabin version of the Oceanis 393. A great med boat with loads of storage rather than berths.

 

[BarryWhite]

There is of course the Sun Legende 41 which sits in between these models. Great solid fast boats. Similar to the First 405 of the same vintage. An owners version for living aboard rather than 3 sleeping cabins + saloon is preferable.

Keeping it just under the 12m length to avoid those extra costs look at the 2 cabin version of the Oceanis 393. A great med boat with loads of storage rather than berths.

Thank you for this. Indeed, I saw that there are few Sun Legende and First 405 are for sale, they are just exceeding 12m (12m50).
What is your opinion about the Sun Charm (Sun Fast 39)?

 

[E39mad]

Thank you for this. Indeed, I saw that there are few Sun Legende and First 405 are for sale, they are just exceeding 12m (12m50).
What is your opinion about the Sun Charm (Sun Fast 39)?

I used to race a Sun Legende out of the Hamble in the late 80's - the owners then bought a Sun Charm but it wasn't raced so not sailed on one. Seem to remember it was more cruising orientated with a longitudinal galley.

 

[James W]

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