3 year pay UK VAT again on return!

[duncan_m]

I live on the boat and we're going to be doing some blue ocean sailing soon so I hope I'll have the logbook with me As we entered pre-Brexit there was no border control so there's nothing to say we were even there in the first place.

We did once go to the marine border police office in Rotterdam where the ships masters go on a previous trip, they were very surprised to see us there apparently no other pleasure sailor had been in for a while. This was a few years back though.

 

[dgadee]

I have been told by HMRC that I can bring my boat back to Northern Ireland (so long as I do not stop off in GB) and will not have to pay VAT (common customs area with EU). I then asked what would happen if I moved to Scotland and took my boat with me (as I intend to do). They said that there would be no VAT payable on that move either. I posted this elsewhere but no-one seems to have picked up that it offers a potential loophole to returning boats to GB.

 

[sailaboutvic]

To clear things up are you a resident in NI or in England ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have to say I wrote to HRMC some time back and all I got was a link to HMRC vat guide.

 

[dgadee]

Resident in Northern Ireland. However residence does not - I understand - come into calculation of VAT. The boat is the VATable object and it is the movement of the boat which attracts tax.

 

[dgadee]

I have to say I wrote to HRMC some time back and all I got was a link to HMRC vat guide.

I have found them quite informative and helpful. Perhaps because the respondent HMRC are based in Belfast.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Resident in Northern Ireland. However residence does not - I understand - come into calculation of VAT. The boat is the VATable object and it is the movement of the boat which attracts tax.

This maybe where there a catch , your an NI resident, I wonder if the answer be the same if the question was , I'm a resident in England, if I brought my boat back via NI would I still be required to pay VAT

 

[dgadee]

This maybe where there a catch , your an NI resident, I wonder if the answer be the same if the question was , I'm a resident in England, if I brought my boat back via NI would I still be required to pay VAT

I can't see that residence has anything to do with it. In the emails I received there was nothing about requirement of residence.

 

[Graham376]

I can't see that residence has anything to do with it. In the emails I received there was nothing about requirement of residence.

I think sailaboutvic has a point there, if you're resident in a country there are different VAT rules compared to if you are resident elsewhere and visiting with your boat. I hope your interpretation is correct but it's unusual for HMRC to leave such a loophole.

 

[dgadee]

I think sailaboutvic has a point there, if you're resident in a country there are different VAT rules compared to if you are resident elsewhere and visiting with your boat. I hope your interpretation is correct but it's unusual for HMRC to leave such a loophole.

I am not resident in a different country, I am resident in the UK. Johnson made a pig's ear of all of this, so it would be nice to think that it's not so much a loophole as a gaping vent.

Edit: being a 'blow in' to NI, I do not have Irish citizenship either - in case you think that might be relevant.

Edit 2: I now see what you mean - you are discussing someone who lives in Greece, for example, as an ex pat. I don't see the relevance. VAT applies to the object not the person.

 

[Graham376]

I am not resident in a different country, I am resident in the UK. Johnson made a pig's ear of all of this, so it would be nice to think that it's not so much a loophole as a gaping vent.
Edit: being a 'blow in' to NI, I do not have Irish citizenship either - in case you think that might be relevant.
Edit 2: I now see what you mean - you are discussing someone who lives in Greece, for example, as an ex pat. I don't see the relevance. VAT applies to the object not the person.

No, I wasn't discussing anyone living in the EU or ex pats.

There appear to be some very unusual VAT rules between Ireland, N Ireland (where you are resident) and UK mainland and I'm not saying what you've been told is wrong.

I'm suggesting there may be different rules for a N Ireland resident moving to mainland UK (Scotland in your case) and bringing his/her belongings with them, as opposed to someone resident on the mainland trying to dodge VAT by sneaking in via Ireland and N Ireland.

 

[dgadee]

What I was told this morning when I queried what would happen if I moved the boat from Greece to NI and then to Scotland was:

"The below may be of interest regarding goods moving from NI to GB;

If you move qualifying Northern Ireland goods directly from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK there'll be no changes and no new customs processes for almost all traders, with some very limited exceptions. For example, goods falling within the very limited number of proce-dures relating to specific international obligations binding on the UK and the EU - such as ob-ligations on the movement of endangered species.
That means, for almost all traders, when your goods leave Northern Ireland for Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales), there'll be:
*no export declaration
*no exit summary declaration
*no import declaration on arrival in Great Britain
*no customs duties to pay
*no VAT to pay at point of arrival
*no changes to how your goods arrive at ports in Great Britain"

I am actually moving the 2nd boat over to Scotland from NI over the next couple of weeks or so. It is essentially being moved from the EU customs area to the GB customs area (and NI/GB are different customs regimes with NI equivalent to the EU regime). I do not expect to be charged VAT to do that.

My presumption is that 'qualifying goods' are those which would normally attract VAT. It would be very useful to see whether I am correct in that interpretation.

PS - my respondent knew I was not in business, just a retired sailor with a boat in Greece.

 

[Graham376]

A couple of questions there - "qualifying goods" as you mention, is one, the other being it refers to "traders" who are in most cases a VAT registered business.

I find it hard to believe that if for instance I've bought a boat in EU for £50k, sail to Malahide and then via Ardglass to UK mainland, the VATman will allow me to save £10k, compared to sailing direct to UK mainland. Brilliant if it's true

 

[sailaboutvic]

dgadee I hope your right , some how I reckon its you living in NI is the important part , of that information.
Although if anyone was thinking of finding a way back in , the NI route would be a better option then a cross channel crossing .
Also am I mistaken but your trip only started two years ago?
If that's the case your within the RGR rules

 

[dgadee]

dgadee I hope your right , some how I reckon its you living in NI is the important part , of that information.
Although if anyone was thinking of finding a way back in , the NI route would be a better option then a cross channel crossing .
Also am I mistaken but your trip only started two years ago?
If that's the case your within the RGR rules

I left UK waters four years ago and don't expect to be back within the next four. My respondent did not mention a time scale. I will email her for clarification, but this time say I will be living in Scotland when I return the boat. I will get back here.

 

[dgadee]

My contact at HMRC got back in touch and pointed to Moving qualifying goods from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK which suggests:

"You cannot move goods through Northern Ireland to avoid the UK tariff or import processes. You may receive penalties if you move goods through Northern Ireland for an avoidance purpose."

I cannot see how that can be implemented for pleasure boats. If you come to NI, rent a mooring a Strangford Lough or a marina pontoon for a season, you become goods in circulation in NI (in my view). You can then move these goods to GB. HMRC may not like it, but this arises from the mess which was created in the Withdrawal Agreement where NI is neither one thing nor the other.

Nowhere in any of these documents, of course, is there mention of residence.

 

[Graham376]

Nowhere in any of these documents, of course, is there mention of residence.

Not surprising residence isn't mentioned, VAT is collected by traders and virtually all documentation is aimed at them. VAT transactions with non-traders are a tiny minority but in some cases, residence can have a bearing depending on whether the owner is a UK resident or a visitor applying for temporary importation for 18 months.

I've no doubt that folks resident on the mainland leaving their boats in N Ireland for a while before bringing back could be seen as avoidance or even evasion, if caught.

 

[dgadee]

Always remember that there are political issues around NI. What might seem simple and obvious to the outsider may be impossible when you are aware of local sensitivities.

 

[sailaboutvic]

We back to who you come across on the day .
There are three boat I know one the way back through Ireland to try and get around the problem , see how they get on .

 

[Graham376]

We back to who you come across on the day .
There are three boat I know one the way back through Ireland to try and get around the problem , see how they get on .

Certainly worth a try