3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happen?

Having worked a few years on trawlers of varying sizes, I can tell you there is not much time. If you go fast the stern can be underwater in seconds, by underwater I mean water flowing over the transom into the boat.

If you broach at this point there is a very real chance of capsize. A good helm will be releasing throttle as soon as the thump is felt, the thump is the net snagging. There is generally enough slack in the cables (catenary) that the helm will react quickly enough.

I would guess if the Belgian boat was towing, she went fast while all the crew were working on deck.

The comments about knowing all the snags on the bottom. Guys towing nets around the same bay all their life will still not have a clue about 95% of the snags, you would be surprised how small an item can pull a trawler under. Don't forget also that stuff is being dumped in the sea regularly and it moves!

Oh hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

Very sad, thoughts with the families at this time of year.
 
So when will fishermen learn that if you hang on to that net you could well be dead, I am hanging on to shares and I am still alive, businesses are hanging in there and still alive, there is NO comparison when lives are at stake. I have NEVER been out on a fishing boat so this comes from someone looking from the outside, but still, there is NO excuse for lives to be lost, it is no good saying it comes with the job, it should not have to. I understand accidents happen and in this particular case I know nothing about it apart from the differing 'stories' in the press, but 3 lives have been lost, that is dreadful no matter what happened, and any lessons if there are any to be learnt should be learnt ASAP.

If that is the way these people think (fishermen in general) I for one would not go out with them full stop, putting your own life at risk is one thing but being a skipper and making a wrong judgement call that puts your crew in danger is another. I know very little about fishermen and don't eat fish, but cannot understand why no emergency signal was activated on this occassion, if I was a fisherman I would have a full proof system AND a back up system, they are available, but too late for those now dead, what value is a life.

This serves as a lesson for us all, I am criticised for being too safety concious, but in a situation like that with my equipment I could still be alive, no good swmbo wishing you had spent that cigarette money or whatever on an EPIRB or other safety equipment when you are dead.

It seems to always be it will never happen to me, well be honest with yourself when next on your boat, give yourself two minutes to prepare to abandon the boat having hit a submerged object and sinking fast, do you know what to do, what to prioritise, how to work that DSC radio you did the course on 18mths ago, or where the EPIRB is?

I am no expert, just like to learn as much as I can from others experience to try and extend the life expectancy of my crew and myself. I would be interested in anyone elses experiences of 'severe' emergencies and how they dealt with them and lessons to be learnt by the rest of us.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Fisherman, you've said it for me. Most of the sentimental stuff previously posted has come from people who I suspect have never been offshore. Who, apart from a pension fund have never taken a personal risk in their working lives. I certainly regret the deaths of these seafarers but not their fortitude.
JJTOP

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I post(ed) as an ex-commercial fisherman (stern trawler skipper) and now a current fulltime seafarer and part of the crew of one of the first vessels at the scene of this incident - one incidently that was omitted from all the new reports....

PW
 
Shame you had to arrive in those circumstances and according to reports some 15hrs after the vessel overturned, it must have been very frustrating to see such a waste of life.

I am sure you would have been happier to have been responding to an activated EPIRB some few minutes after the incident with the chance of saving some other lives.

I do hope for the sake of all other fishermens families that some law is brought in to enforce and to ensure that two if not three fullproof systems for overturned or sinking boats are deployed on these vessels. I don't know what happened on this one, but it is blatantly clear that NOTHING was activated to commence a search and rescue, that is unforgivable no matter what with todays technology, this is proven by the loss of three lives.
 
Re: liferaft

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe those who posted about not needing a liferaft for coastal cruising in the South might like to reconsider now?

[/ QUOTE ] How many of these posters drag fishing nets along the sea floor in all weathers?

To put a case for liferafts on the back of the tragedy is clutching at straws, especially when, in this case, the liferaft didn't deploy.
 
You have talked complete twaddle and rubbish on occasion, but your last couple of posts in this thread have surpassed anything that has gone before.

Show me a fisherman on a family small boat with the income to buy all the gear you suggests he carries and I will show you a part time drug runner.

Your head is in the clouds, Epirbs, life rafts etc etc. Most old time fishermen do not believe they should rely on others to get them out of trouble. If money is spent, it is spent on equipment to catch fish, yer know, to put food on the families table. Do you I wonder have any comprehension of the average weekly wage of medium sized boats skipper and crew.

Did you totally ignore what I said about being pulled under, it is a possibility, many boats disappear without trace each year with guys who have forgotten more than you could ever aspire to know, yet you are now an expert on their safety.

Totally unbelievable.
 
Well, maybe it's time the balance changed. I agree with GC1 in that a commercial boat to be upside down in coastal waters for 15 hours with nobody searching or even aware that they were missing is unacceptable in the 21st Century, even if it might not have affected the final death toll.

I don't have to be an expert in construction to know that the mortality rate of Chinese construction workers on tall buildings is unacceptable, so why do you have to be an expert on fishing boats to say that avoidable deaths should not be accepted ?

I'll wait until the MAIB investigation results are published, then we can debate sensibly with some firmer facts.

dv.
 
One quick point, the rafts won't be inflated under the vessel, since they won't have floated to the end of the painter. They may well be trapped in float free mountings, along with the EPIRB. It seems likely that there was time to close doors and hatches, since vessel did not sink, and survivor had time to don a survival suit.
Safety requirements say that I don't need a raft, but if I have one it must be in date. I don' t have to have a hydro, but ditto. There was a case in St Ives when, allegedly, the MCA imposed the removal of an unserviced raft, and shortly after the boat was lost with the crew.
Bizarrely I am not required to have a bilge pump or alarm. I must carry approved jackets, and also the auto jackets we wear all the time. Incidentally, a few vessels have gone down due lack of a bilge alarm: who's going to go below and crawl through a flooded engine space to turn off seacocks? A half flooded boat remains stable while steaming, and takes a sudden lurch when you ease down and the water rushes forward. I've known more than one case where the exhaust has come off the skin fitting, leaving a nice big hole in the transom.
 
OK if that is your belief then as I said I would not go out with anyone with that attitude, but you have clearly shown you are as daft and small minded as them. So what you are saying is that fishermen, if they drown, it is down to them, they have not taken the correct precautions because they can't afford it. I have no problems with the skipper drowning if he wants to take that risk and not have the correct equipment (apart from us then having to fork out to keep his family going), what I do not agree with is the crew being killed without the choice, but then it is up to them if they want to get on that boat with that type of person.

SO if you have idiots going out ill prepared (and YES I am calling them idiots, in fact more than that when they put others lives at risk, but perhaps murderer is a bit strong when their crew is killed), it is time to bring in firm legislation to put an end to these unnecessary deaths and the state then having to fork out for the families left behind because of their old fashioned and small minded attitude.

How many more times will Widows, orphans and family have to go to funerals of fishermen and sing those songs about the perils of the sea, Oh Yes! we all know about the perils of the sea and would hope that with todays technology this would be reduced, but it seems it is not, how very sad and criminal that nothing is done about it. The cost of keeping a dead fishermans family must outweigh the cost of the safety equipment 100's of times, why does the government not issue the kit to authorised fishermen, or a charity set up to supply such kit if they are pleading poverty, much better than some of the nonsense charities that people are giving to. Perhaps a collection box when you go and get your fish and chips, to buy the equipment to save the waste of lives.

OR perhaps the RNLI who are taking hundreds of millions of pounds through their collection box's and fund raising, and with mega millions in their reserve accounts should supply the equipment to the fishermen, I am sure the public just do not want ANYONE drowning. Getting to the root of the problem is the answer, rescues could be so much more efficient if when the RNLI arrived on the scene having been alerted by an EPIRB, all the crew were safely in liferafts, this would save the RNLI further risk to their crews and show a better live rescue rate.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for being in water for 15hrs unnoticed in a busy shipping channel, for goodness sake, these so called explorers who go and do daft things for their own ego and then when the sh.t hits the fan press their 'Help button' can be rescued at OUR expense in Oceans all over the world. I would like to see some of these 'so called explorers' do what they do with NO EPIRB or other help equipment, their equipment should be donated to the fishermen who can't afford it, and leave the 'idiot' explorers to be eaten by sharks, it may make them think twice before going on ego boosting daft trips and perhaps get them to take on a proper job and earn a living rather on relying on sponging off others.

But then again we have idiots in the pleasure market as well, look at the lack of safety gear and preparation on the boats of the 'it will never happen to me people', but then again, the good old RNLI will go and get them won't they! But what about their children that have no choice with mental Dad who knows everything going out ill prepared and doing daft things putting the little souls life at risk, those Dads should be locked up and the kids put in a place of safety, yes if the risk he put them at was on land that is what would happen to him, but at sea it seems to be, well alright we should have the freedom to put at risk and drown who we want. NONSENSE!
 
quote [ it is time to bring in firm legislation to put an end to these unnecessary deaths.

Firm legislation is in place, and this vessel should have had the required safety equipment, although I'm not au fait with the situation abroad. Trouble is, you can't legislate for the unusual circumstance which may negate all your efforts, or the occasional equipment failure.
In this country training is pretty good, and I will defend myself, though I can't speak for other fishermen. I have a ten metre boat. liferaft, though not required, auto jackets, (no jacket, no job) ditto, bilge alarm, ditto, DSC, ditto, one vhf connected direct to battery, RNLI CPRS (under trial). Service batteries are above deck in the wheelhouse. I can reach the toggle to manually slip the liferaft above the wheelhouse door and the DSC button at the same time.
I may not take on crew who have not got the relevant certificates in survival, first aid at sea, firefighting, and some of us have done helicopter rescue. Do you know the highline procedure? You should.
Rigid requirements are for flares, lifejackets (that you can't work in), fire extinguishers, lights, signals, fog horn. But I saw the MCA inspector pass a vessel, a loose decked open boat, with the hand bilge pump under the deck in the bottom of a net pound about four feet deep. Non of it is rocket science, nor very expensive.
 
The last person I believe, who thought status or money was enough to overpower the power of the sea was called Canute.

You can load your boat to the gunwales with perceived safety equipment and it will mean nothing if you do not maintain a healthy respect for one of Earths deadliest environments.

Accidents happen, people die, they always have. If you choose to be on the water you can not buy yourself immunity from danger. Yes you can try to run a safe boat, but the sea is still more powerful than anything man has so far achieved.

Your attitude of carrying everything known to man sold in the name of personal safety at sea and feeling smug about being safe, is pretty frightening to be quite honest.
 
There was a saying in the RAF that there were "Old Pilots" and "Bold Pilots but there were no "Old Bold Pilots". Perhaps the same could be applied to fishermen. Safety needs to be an integral part of every aspect of operating and maintaining boats and planes. You can't just buy safety by writing a check for the latest bit of kit.
 
Re: liferaft

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe those who posted about not needing a liferaft for coastal cruising in the South might like to reconsider now?

[/ QUOTE ] How many of these posters drag fishing nets along the sea floor in all weathers?

To put a case for liferafts on the back of the tragedy is clutching at straws, especially when, in this case, the liferaft didn't deploy.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is those who said they were unnecessary seemed to expect to be picked up within the hour... this proves that it probably won't happen.... even in one of the worlds busiest shipping lanes.

Until she is righted no one can say the rafts did or didnt inflate under the hull and become entangled.

One would ASSUME that as she seemed to be anchored to the bottom she was towing and came fast or likely hauling.

For obvious reasons I will not go into reasons for this ASSUMPTION nor any further detail.


PW
 
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You can't just buy safety by writing a check for the latest bit of kit.

No, and I'm amazed to see a discussion elsewhere in the forum about whether the sea survival course is a good thing. If you think that just having a liferaft will save you you may be mistaken.
 
I am not talking about every safety item in the world, I am talking about an EPIRB or some system that can identify when a boat has sunk or overturned, not rocket science and available on the open market now. This technology is tiny compared to other safety kit, have you ever seen an EPIRB? from what you say I doubt it and you are talking with ignorance.

If a basic £699 GPS EPIRB does what it says on the tin and is the size of an older style mobile phone, then there is no excuse not to have one if it could save lives. There are better systems a bit dearer that would ensure auto activation in case of an emergency, these are the types that should be deployed. If people want to go out without the correct gear so be it, but don't expect sympathy from me at all. I would prefer to see the handouts being given in advance for safety kit, not for the widows and orphans after the deaths. Lightweight racing boats are racing all the time around the world with the latest safety kit, not bulky at all, so no excuse for fishermen who should be properly funded.

Now what have you to say about that?

As for you thinking I am being smug re safety gear, yet again you are talking out of your @rse. I take safety seriously, when I take my family out with me including a 4yr old, I have a responsibility to ensure I have taken whatever proceedures I can to ensure her and the other crews safety. The smug people are those who don't think or as I said before think it will never happen to them, and from what I see there are plenty of them, but then when the worst happens they have to live with it, if they are alive and will get no sympathy from me, just a shame for those lives lost that they have been responsible for.

The only way I see any change is to make it a part of the manufacturing process like seatbelts, an auto EPIRB. Cars in the US are now being built with standard locate systems that send a message to a central point if a car is in an accident or overturns, some of their boats also have that (standard on mine in the US), but we are way behind here.
 
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Lightweight racing boats are racing all the time around the world with the latest safety kit, not bulky at all, so no excuse for fishermen who should be properly funded.


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While I agree with you in principle CG1 - that the technology was not there to raise the alarm in this case, I have to take issue with the comparison between the average trawler, and a round the world racer: the racer is funded to the Nth degree by their sponsors - without whom they would not be there, while the Trawler community is trying to scrape a hard and dangerous living, knowing full well they will never actually make any real money.

The racing yottie has all the latest safety gear, is working in a highly regulated sport, has the advantage of the latest developements in technology, design, and safety.

Yet lives are still lost.

It would be useful to compare the percentage of fatalities in offshore racing against the fishing industry: I suspect both in terms of the number of fatalaties say per 1000 sea hours, or per 100 crew members, the percentage loss would be much the same.
 
The example may have been a little extreme, but it was to highlight the fact that tons of equipment are not required to give basic emergency, boat sinking/sunk and coordinates to the emergency services.

I am NO EXPERT in commercial shipping OR fishing, but as a simple person seeing what is available to pleasure boaters in a basic Chandlery am dumbstruck that in the regulated commercial world you could be sunk without anyone knowing nowadays, no matter how many back up systems you have.

Perhaps fishermen should have a little trip to their local chandlery or go to LIBS and get some gear to save their lives or at least minimise their risk if they have nothing at present. Even a personal 406 EPIRB that can be attached at all times is available. I will be reviewing all my safety gear this year, the loss of a life cannot be brought back, and for the sake of a small investment compared to boat purchase, fuel, moorings and maintenance, a life or lives could be saved. It just seems that my gear so far has been used at a cost to me to save other prats on the water, and on one particular occassion witnessed by forum members with not even a word of thanks /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

[ QUOTE ]
why does the government not issue the kit to authorised fishermen, or a charity set up to supply such kit if they are pleading poverty, much better than some of the nonsense charities that people are giving to. Perhaps a collection box when you go and get your fish and chips, to buy the equipment to save the waste of lives.

OR perhaps the RNLI who are taking hundreds of millions of pounds through their collection box's and fund raising

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't this a Belgian boat?

Far too much ranting here with very little of the facts known....
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I KNOW it was a Belgium boat, I am being careful NOT to talk about any one particular incident, just talking about fishermen's attitudes and financial difficulties in general. This is openly being shared by those in the industry who have been kind to share some info, all we are trying to discuss is how to limit loss of life and ensure that it is minimised in the future. Perhaps fishermen are too busy to go to LIBS or SIBS and see what can be bought fairly cheaply to alert the emergency services and save a life, and if one buys a personal EPIRB and that saves a life it has been a worthwhile discussion.

The discussion is also letting others see what conditions some of these fishermen are working in and perhaps next time they go to LIBS or SIBS they may wish to buy a personal EPIRB and donate it in to a local fisherman, you never know, that may be one less local funeral in the future! If you love your fish so much surely with the wealth on this forum that is not a lot to ask people to do.

I went to a function at the Dorchester hotel only last week that was in aid of the NSPCC, the guests including us in the room on the night raised through live auctions and donations £568,000 which was given there and then, so nothing is impossible with some effort. Lets start getting the fishermen GPS EPIRB'd up and save some lives, it may not be the full answer, but nobody deserves to sink and have nobody know it has happened immediately with the technology available today.
 
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