3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happen?

Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Now about a refresher course? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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VHF? Or on water? I suggest we wait for yer boat! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I was the one who started that old GPS EPIRB thread.
I talked to CG Falmouth at the time.
They told me that it makes no difference if the EPIRB is GPS or not, the sat picks the postion up which they update as they start the search. I was surprised at the time because I thought GPS ones just had to be better!
I am about to purchase an EPIRB for the new boat and will still probably go for one with a built in GPS - if I ever have to use it, I will want to be sure I have done all i can to get the fastest response..... despite tha advice.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

My assumption was that a non-GPS epirb couldn't give a position out, you would therefore have to build a probable pos area from when the sat aquired the signal, when it lost it again and an assumption of range giving you a search box/oval on the water (you have to know what the sat's orbit is of course).

I would have thought a GPS epirb would be a big improvement on this as it would give you a firm pos within this box - good to know all is not lost if the gps bit failed though....
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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I brought this up in another thread recently. I would consider carrying an epirb in local waters on the south coast almost a waste of time, just look how many false DSC alerts are being reported. There are so many of the London Navy in the Solent pressing buttons that the whole system has as said become devalued.

It seems every good idea is ruined when they allow the public to use it, sad really.

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So how many false EPIRB alerts are there then? Bound to be some - but so many that the system is devalued would suprise me. Not sure you can extrapolate from false DSC alerts - though I don't know the figures for those - perhaps you can share them?

Rick
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I just spoke with the manufacturers, they tell me that both units require a passing satelite to connect to, the GPS version on the first pass will give a full accurate set of coordinates, the non GPS one may require 2 or 3 passes of the satelite for the emergency services computer to triangulate your position, they did state that the water temperature could dictate which one you should go for e.g. if it is in warmer climates and you could float around a bit without freezing to death then the cheaper one, but if in cold water and rescue was required quickly then the GPS one, I know what one I am going for, sod swimming about for a few hours /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Also note that units bought in the USA ARE DIFFERENT to the ones in the UK, 'according to them', because the country of origin and some codings set in the emergency signal are different. I didn't take much notice of what was said other than question whether that meant a US sailor sinking in the Channnel would have no chance of being rescued /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that I questioned why they are MUCH cheaper in the USA at the moment /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Apparently if the fishing boat that sank had one of these GPS EPIRBS correctly fitted, the crew would have been picked up within 20 minutes due to the fact the local RNLI stations would also have been alerted, this info was from one of the rescuers I spoke to, NOT my info. The boat sank so quickly that one of the crew was still in his underwear, so it goes to show you have to be prepared, things can happen so fast!
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

See Here for a newly launched 406 GPS EPIRB at a bargain price (top one), if you click on 'more info' it explains how it works.


Here is a very recent example of how the system can be devalued, with more of these systems becoming available I guess 'correct' disposal has to be considered. It still doesn't explain where they found it, are they saying it was in a discarded rubbish bag thrown out to sea? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

OK, here goes I'll stick my neck out. Usually earns me a bunch of hate mail /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

For 121 EPIRB's less than 2 in a 1000 alerts are actually distress alerts. Either accidental or one of the many other radio sources on 121MHZ. Not all the world is covered (about 2/3). Almost every country in the world will not respond to a 121MHz alert unless there is further information as to it being genuine. New Zealand is the only country I know of that reacts immediately to a 121 alert - for the UK I do not know what their practice is. Using Doppler shift the satellite can position the beacon to within around 13 or so nm. The alert information does not identify the boat and the power output is around 0.1 watt so can be difficult for the satellite to detect. I would not carry a 121 beacon if it was given to me and as others have said they will not be supported (Feb 2009 from memory) - and they will not be supported cos no one is going to replace the satellites and most countries don't respond to the 121 alerts anyway.

For 406 beacons about 8% of alerts are actual distress but EVERY alert is responded to no matter where you are as long as the EPIRB is registered. The power output is around 5 watts vs 0.1 for the 121 EPIRB. When registering it you have to name three (usually) contacts and this is international practice. On an alert being received from the satellite (around 3/4 hour average from orbiting satellites, immediate from fixed satellites) both the SAR region you are in plus the SAR authority in the country the EPIRB is registered in (UKCG for UK) will be advised. Your registered country will proceed to phone your nominated contacts to try to verify the alert (just the fact that the boat is actually at sea) and your boat's name is also known from the EPIRB's registration.

Using doppler shift the satellite will position the beacon within around 2 nm, and to GPS accuracy if GPS fitted (for EPIRB's geenrally stated to be better than 100m). As Gludy has said, the GPS adds little.

The SAR region the alert is in will initiate rescue and if they do not have the resources they can call on those of a neighbouring region. Usually, if offshore, a merchant ship is tasked with the pickup. Some twerp on these forums in another thread insisted that poor countries do not respond. This is an international system and only nominated reliable countries are coodinating countries - it is an official part of SOLAS and also the equivalent for aircraft. Here in the Pacific, which has the widest expanses of water and least ship traffic density, it would be unusual for a ship to not be on station within 24 hours (do some calcs with ship speeds and distances to see how far away a ship can be and get there in 24 hours). Usually in the Pacific they are rescued off the boat still floating.

A ship will do a visual search at the beacon location and a plane will fly down the EPIRB using the 121 MHz homing signal that the EPIRB also transmits on for that purpose (121 MHz is also the aviation safety frequency so does not have to be a special plane to receive it). If you are in the unfortunate circumstance of being in a raft with the EPIRB and you take it inside with you or you turn it on while still on your boat (the usual case), keep it vertical to provide a better signal for a search aircraft to fly down. Do not turn it off unless specifically told to do so (assuming you have a VHF) - those who say (have been some in threads on these forums) only turn it on now and again to save power are talking bunkum. If a plane flies down the beacon the first thing you will generally know about it is when it is suddenly overhead. If you turn the EPIRB off and a plane is flying it down and still afar you will be lost again. It may also place uncertainty as to the genuineness of the alert in the minds of SAR.

The 406 EPIRB's ALMOST all activate when just dropped in the water ie they start transmitting (that is so whether they are hydrostatically rleased or not). Recently some have appeared on the Market which do not - they are cheaper and the only example I know of is the GME one made in Australia (but available in the UK). This thread possibly indicates a disadvantage of those.

Also, when you buy a 406 EPIRB make sure you register it and make sure you get back the coding sheet showing it has been coded. A possible problem exists if the EPIRB is accidently miscoded or not at all. All EPIRBS on vessels I have anything to with I dissassemble the coding to see if it stacks up (there are programs that do that). I have on two instances had new EPIRB's go onto boats, supposedly coded for the boat, which when I decoded the they still had the manufacturers test code in them. I suspect that is very rare to happen though as both those EPIRB's came from the same supplier at the same time.

EPIRB's are compulsory fit on all commercial vessels unless a very small vessel in most civilised countries of the world (would be surprised out of my socks if it was not also so in the UK) so it is not a case of whether fishermen can afford them or not, they have to have them.

Fishing boats that tow - I don't know the boat in question but is a common problem with smaller older boats as they do not have (were not designed to) the stability to withstand a snarlup with an overturning moment. I know around 10 years ago a number of the european countries did some research into this (I was a little involved in similar in my own home country)- particular problem for boats under around 15-16m (from memory) and one of the common cause of loss (often without trace). As others have said, the boats overturn very quickly.

Hope that is of some use to the thread - sorry about the length. I agree with GC1 regarding carriage of 406 EPIRB's.

John
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Also note that units bought in the USA ARE DIFFERENT to the ones in the UK

No they're not different Pete. What happens is that the coding is different, but only in the same sense as with DSC - each country has a different country code but the rest of the coding is the same for the same type of boat, etc - 'cept of course the part identifying the boat. For that some countries use the boats MMSI (mainly the big ship registers) and others serialise them ie each boat just has a different serial number embedded in the code.

So, if you buy a beacon in the USA either get it coded in UK or specifically instruct what the coding should be. The latter is difficult for a small private owner, but I get EPIRB's coded in the country the boat is built in with the information supplied by the country that the boat will actually be owned in - the authorities in the home country will allocate the boat an MMSI for the radios and also the coding for the EPIRB to all be entered for the delivery. The register of ships that the boat goes on (if a commercial or larger vessel) will usually want copies of the coding for their own checks.

Should have reminded peeps in my last long winded post - if you have a 406 EPIRB keep your register details (your contacts and their phone numbers, etc) up to date. Here we can just do that over the fone or email, don't know about the UK. If they are wrong, you may discourage a search.

Regards

John
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Thanks for the trouble of typing all that /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for GPS EPIRB, 'apparently' it can send the distress message within 3 mins, where the Non GPS can take 40 mins or so (see the info on the link below).

I have found the cheapest (that I can find) McMurdo Fast Find Plus (GPS EPIRB) in the UK @ £558.12p inc VAT, There is also an offer of another 4% off for orders of 5 or more + free P&P, so if anyone is interested please let me know as I may get one as well.

Here is the Chandlery selling them at that price.

Re the USA EPIRB's you will see by my last post I was a bit surprised at the fact that if it was bought in the USA cheaper it would not work /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Look at This for US prices /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, I have found another shop in Croydon that will match Yachting Universe and do them even cheaper for forum members at £548 inc vat See details here. Just mention group discount discussed with them this morning. (check on P&P I forgot to do that)
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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For 406 beacons about 8% of alerts are actual distress but EVERY alert is responded to no matter where you are as long as the EPIRB is registered.

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Thanks - but what this doesn't tell us is whether the system is being devalued through excessive false alarms. How many 406 alarms a week are seen in the Solent (given that thats the area ships_woofy was saying there were excessive false alarms)? Anyone know if its possible to get that figure?

FWIW, I don't see 8% valid alarms as a particular problem (as any complex system like this is going to see a reasonable level of false activiations) - if the overall level of alerts is reasonably low.

Rick
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I think the point Falmouth made to me was that the initial sat pass subject to verification is enough to launch and final finding is done with the 121 Mz anyway.
They clearly told me that the GPS did not speed the recue up.

I am as surprised as you - I was arguing that even a few minutes gain was worth it and I will still probably buy a GPS EPIRB anyway -- just in case!!! :-)
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Ok, on the timing thing.

As I understand it all 406 EPIRBs are received by both the polar orbiting constellation of satelites and the new transponders on geostationary satellites. The geostationary satellites can only cover Tropic and temperate areas and not polar regions as they are located above the equator. I don't know if the tropicand temporate regions are fully covered by the geostationary transponders yet - they weren't when I last chacked (maybe a year ago perhaps).

So, when a 406 EPIRB transmits an alert if it is in the coverage of a geostationary transponder then the alert is received immediately. If not then one has to wait for a polar orbiting satellite pass which might be immediately or longer - the average is around 45 minutes (or was last time I checked) which ties in with the 40 mins you refer to. This is the same for GPS and non GPS EPIRBs.

Now, if the EPIRB has a GPS fitted and one is in the footprint of a geostationary satellite transponder then the position of the beacon is also known straight away. If the beacon does not have GPS fitted then one does not get a fix until the next polar orbiting satellite pass (again, average of around 45 minutes) and that fix (as in my windy post) is done using Doppler shift.

Now on the timing for the position, I don't think it makes much difference as in most cases the rescuers will not be dispatched until at least an attempt has been made to contact your nominated contacts and there is also the time it takes to dispatch the rescuers. So, for open sea I don't think it matters a jot, what is 45 minutes or so when it is going to take hours for anyone to get to you. For close in coastal, it depends on the readiness of tha SAR people. How long it takes to get the crew onto the helicopter and dispatched. Not sure on this but here (NZ) I think they work on 30 minute readiness for a Rescue Helicopter to be in the air with swimmer and medics on board. By which time they will usually have the position whether the EPIRB is GPS fitted or not.

Gludy may be able to comment here as I think I recall it was him who spoke to Falmouth on this subject and the response was GPS did not make much difference to the response.

In the end, the GPS one has to be better, but I suspect it is not really too important in the scheme of things if ones EPIRB is not GPS fitted (my own isn't and I would not rush out to replace it with one that has).

I'm off to bed.

John
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

See my last post re prices, it seems quite competitive at the moment, perhaps the US prices are leading the way, look at the reductions on them over there /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The info clearly states that the GPS EPIRB will send the data much faster than the standard one as it has it to send, so goodness know what the Coastguard is saying, but finding a good deal on a GPS one which brings it closer price wise to a non GPS one will do me.

As to 'The GPS one will not speed up the rescue' perhaps that IS TRUE, but when does the rescue start, perhaps when they know where you are! So the quicker they know where e.g. within 3 mins with the GPS one, or 45 mins or so later with the non GPS one, the quicker the rescue starts, but both rescues take the same time /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As I said you are relying on a human in the rescue chain somewhere, that's where it could all go wrong /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, I think we are all agreed that 'an EPIRB' is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, or sitting on a hull (if you are lucky enough to have one) for 15 hrs /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Gludy may be able to comment here as I think I recall it was him who spoke to Falmouth on this subject and the response was GPS did not make much difference to the response.

In the end, the GPS one has to be better, but I suspect it is not really too important in the scheme of things if ones EPIRB is not GPS fitted (my own isn't and I would not rush out to replace it with one that has).



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yes I spoke to Falmouth and yes they took the wind out of my sales stating that there is not much, if any difference in practice.

I also agree with your conclusion - its not worth changing if you already have one.

However, it can do not harm to have one, so I am getting a GPS one regardless. Just like I insist on self righting life rafts that are independently tested (there is only one make – an simple fact!) and life rafts with robust steps not silly rope ladders that are simply useless for climbing aboard from the sea..

Accidents are a combination of things - I like to reduce the odds where I can.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Has anyones view on safety been affected by this thread so much so that they would honestly now consider a 406 EPIRB when before they did not? Just interested to know, because I certainly would and am looking at them after what I have read.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Well. it's been a busy day on here! I think the main point to come out of this is that, as I said, the first response must come from YOU, it's no good planning to be in the water for more than a few minutes unless in a survival suit. I've been overboard, and can assure you that it takes about three weeks for the boat to come round and pick you up.
Of 35000 merchant seamen who died in the war almost all died of exposure. You've got to be in a raft, and you've got to be trained to use it.
I'm not required to carry an EPIRB, that comes in either at ten-twelve, or over twelve metres, but am currently considering options in that direction. or the RNLI CPRS, there still seems to be a lot of conflicting info.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I can't think of anything more horrifying than being in the water having NOT had any emergency signal sent, just waiting in hope that someone will come, it must be hell, a minute could feel like an hour, an hour a day and a day a week, not forgetting the hypothermia setting in and the slow drowning death! I for one DO NOT want to go there, if I have to pay £550 to NEVER be in that situation then for me that is money well spent, I am sure anyone IN that situation with nothing and the chance of dying would pay £55,000+ for one there and then if possible to save their life.

I have learnt my lesson from other poor souls who have perished, and if something good comes out of it then so much the better.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Yes, and I keep trying to hammer home to people, (they nicknamed me 'wotchewanadoo') is that you do have to plan for the worse possible scenario:

the boat is going down NOW, you are flooded because some idiot connected a galvanised steel pipe to a gunmetal seacock

you have no bilge alarm, so no warning

the life jackets had been relegated to the most inaccessible part of the forepeak, the boat went down while the skipper was in there



the exhaust dropped off the skinfitting an hour ago and you have been filling the boat with the engine cooling water, as well as the water coming in through the skinfitting (examine how many jubilee clips on hoses, skin fittings and engine are keeping your boat afloat.)

your batteries are under water down below so the radio doesn't work

the engine driven Jabsco won't work because the belts are under water, electric pump, see above

the untrained crew launches the raft and cuts the painter before it inflates

we fired a parachute flare but the other boat carried on and disappeared (the other boat was too close, they should have used a hand-held. The para flare was directly above them. No training)

you think you may have got a distress call away, but the wires to the radio have corroded a little: you are still receiving, but when you try to transmit the power required goes from .5 amps to 7 amps and the connection breaks down

the boat sank and the rafts popped up, but it was a force nine and they went before we could catch them (DSC and EPIRB did the job in that case)

all the above I have known to happen, most, thank goodness, not all together, and most not to me.
 
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