bluedragon
Well-Known Member
Hi Ricd...see what our conversation has led to!! I'd never even heard of them until Saturday, and now it could be my specialist subject on Mastermind (is that even still on the telly?)
Elecsol batteries - are the claims for real?
- Thread starter bluedragon
- Start date
EddieBlue
Active Member
Hi Eddie...just the man we want! BTW I like the style of your motorhome. It seems to float
Let's put the warranty issue to one side...maybe you can answer the question "are the claims for real"? Do these batteries massively outperform any other leisure battery on the market with 1000 deep cycles at 80% DoD? Yes or No?
PS - do you sell these in Taunton? Might want to pick one up from you on my way down the M5?
Personally I have never tested them side by side on charging cycles, however, The Caravan Club and many others have tested Elecsol extensively and they really do seem to come out on top in independent testing.
As a retailer I need to supply products that do what they say they will do so independent testing is a good indicator.
And with a five year warranty we have peace of mind that our customers are not going to be disappointed (if the customer completes the warranty form!)
Eddie
EddieBlue
Active Member
No they are now sealed! I wish that they were still open as an an old fashioned bloke (started life making batteries in house whilst working for the Longlife Tyre and Battery Company) I like to peer inside to see what's what!
Eddie
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
Thanks Eddie. I don't see them on your website. Do you sell them from your workshop in Taunton?
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
I've looked online for these "independent tests" but have come up with nothing except this abstract http://shop.freesolarenergy.co.uk/images/custom/elecsol1.pdf which seemed to involve running a one-off discharge test vs. an Exide battery (in which Elecsol lasted longer)...but it tells me nothing about multi-cycle life, resistance to sulphation, etc. So I have to discount those claims until/unless the proof is provided. My conclusion is that a) if I buy from a dealer b) at a price / guarantee in-line with alternatives, then I've nothing to lose. But I still take everything else with a pinch of salt right now.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Probably best if you ring them yourself.
stevensuf
Well-Known Member
they are rubbish
I bought 2 off the 250 ah agms from elecsol, they lasted less than 8 months, very sensitive to alternator charging at 14.4v- killed them in no time, from the start they did not have the rated capacity either, avoid like the plague.
Mostly they were charged from 320w of solar in the med , they were rarely used anywhere near the so called rated capacity.
They finally gave up the ghost half way across the atlantic (great timing) a complete waste of 800 pounds, i would have been much better buying cheap open batteries and at least been able to top up the electrolyte.
Now sitting in the Caribbean with no easy way of returning them and by the sound of other net posts they dont honor their warranty anyway.
I bought 2 off the 250 ah agms from elecsol, they lasted less than 8 months, very sensitive to alternator charging at 14.4v- killed them in no time, from the start they did not have the rated capacity either, avoid like the plague.
Mostly they were charged from 320w of solar in the med , they were rarely used anywhere near the so called rated capacity.
They finally gave up the ghost half way across the atlantic (great timing) a complete waste of 800 pounds, i would have been much better buying cheap open batteries and at least been able to top up the electrolyte.
Now sitting in the Caribbean with no easy way of returning them and by the sound of other net posts they dont honor their warranty anyway.
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BGW
Well-Known Member
I posted on this thread a few times in the past, and now, after two years of use I can state that my Elecsol agm batteries are performing very well and as expected.
Batteries are only one part in the chain and are the weak link if there is a failure to keep them charged, or to maintain a proper charging regime.
14.4v is at the upper end of the allowable charge rate, and if this was not exceeded then it should not have been the issue. If they did not perform from the start why did you not take it up with them straight away? - I take it you are on a long voyage? - You are making assumptions about the waste of money and should contact them first to see what the situation actually is.
They do appear to have agents in many countries.
If all of your charging regime is correct as you say it is then you should have no issue getting replacement batteries - If there is something wrong in your system and they were subjected to over or under charging, then it's not really the fault of the batteries.
Let us know how you get on after you have contacted their support.
stevensuf
Well-Known Member
Brian
I tried to contact them before we left the UK and got the run around, wanting test reports etc and coming the mickey with me asking how i checked the capacity etc
We are now in the Caribbean so the costs to send 120 odd kilos back to the UK is too much.
We live aboard so poor batteries show up much faster than with occasional users. The batteries have never been subjected to above the chargers max voltages which is 14.4v the shore/solar have multistage chargers set for agms, only the alternator has a dumb regulator, which prolonged at 14.4v will slowly degass them.
It was not till we were half way across Biscay that I noticed we were only getting 15hours or so life from them at an average of 10amps, not so good ie about 150ah from 500ah?? now we are lucky if they last an hour or two on full charge.
And if you buy in the UK they want them sent back to the UK so even from spain it was going to cost a small fortune to ship them both ways and get a meaningful check down difficult.
I tried to contact them before we left the UK and got the run around, wanting test reports etc and coming the mickey with me asking how i checked the capacity etc
We are now in the Caribbean so the costs to send 120 odd kilos back to the UK is too much.
We live aboard so poor batteries show up much faster than with occasional users. The batteries have never been subjected to above the chargers max voltages which is 14.4v the shore/solar have multistage chargers set for agms, only the alternator has a dumb regulator, which prolonged at 14.4v will slowly degass them.
It was not till we were half way across Biscay that I noticed we were only getting 15hours or so life from them at an average of 10amps, not so good ie about 150ah from 500ah?? now we are lucky if they last an hour or two on full charge.
And if you buy in the UK they want them sent back to the UK so even from spain it was going to cost a small fortune to ship them both ways and get a meaningful check down difficult.
sailinglegend420
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread – I have been following these “Magic Batteries” for a while and don't believe their hype.
I notice stevensuf has posted on another US thread where he talks about his alternator as being unregulated 14.2 volts, not overcharging at 14.4 volts as he claims here????
My thoughts are undercharging not overcharging.
1. If you only charge to 80% then the capacity of you batteries will only ever reach 400Ah not 500Ah. 50% DoD is then only 200Ah, much closer to the 150Ah you claim you are getting.
2. Your unregulated alternator @ 14.2v would struggle to charge AGMs correctly. What voltage are you actually getting at the batteries? Even your 350 watts of solar is unlikely to be fully charging your batteries as they will only put in about 100Ah a day. Even when your regulator drops to "float" you may only be 90% charged!!!!!
3. New batteries take maybe 30 full charge/discharge cycles to reach full capacity - did that happen before your voyage?
4. You need to check your Ah capacity measurements. Battery monitors can becoming very inaccurate if not reset to 100% when you know the batteries are 100% charged. Does your 50% DoD also show a voltage of 12.2v - measured at the batteries - with no load and no discharge after a few hours rest? Difficult to do on a boat but just disconnect one battery and see what voltage it recovers to after 4 hours. This will confirm or deny your 50% DoD claims. At 50% DoD with 10 amps being withdrawn your battery voltage may go down to less than 12.1v, but recover to 12.2v after a rest with no load/charge.
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ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not at all technical but had three 110 ah Elecsol batteries for seven years and apart from the fact that they weighed about 2/3 the weight of an equivalent lead acid they worked to spec for all of that time.
This included being run down on several occasions when marina power failed (the boat was abroad for half the time, the rest on a swinger with no charging in between going out for a sail).
They finally expired this summer after seven years of zero maintenance from me.
I only didn't buy them again because I wanted the new ones in a hurry.
One happy customer.
This included being run down on several occasions when marina power failed (the boat was abroad for half the time, the rest on a swinger with no charging in between going out for a sail).
They finally expired this summer after seven years of zero maintenance from me.
I only didn't buy them again because I wanted the new ones in a hurry.
One happy customer.
stevensuf
Well-Known Member
Sorry the alternator is 14.4v the solar tops out at 14.2v, i get about 3 hours now with about 10amps draw before all the low voltage alarms start screaming, battery monitor first, then twenty mins later the plotter low voltage alarm then shortly after the autopilot low alarm, dropping to 11v.
stevensuf
Well-Known Member
nb have confirmed that under way at night we draw 10 amp on average, autopilot, led navs and fridge/gps /wind/depth guages running, when i first got the batteries i got about 15 hours run time on full charge, now less than 3 at best
johnphilip
Well-Known Member
Which ones are we talking about
A long thread with a great deal of information and opinion.
Could people make it clear which range thaey are talking about. Are they referring to the Carbon fibre leisure batteries or the Carbon AGM? Becoming adamantly critical about a brand without being clear which product is involved is less than fair.
Personally I have two 110 Volt leisure Carbon fibre Elecsols that have done 5 seasons of reasonably careful use without a blink. I cannot fit the AGM under the aft bunk. I hope I have not now ruined them as when I went to check the boat the Webasto would not start and investigation showed that at some time in the autumn I had knocked off the circuit breaker for the charger, like many boat problems, self inflicted.
A long thread with a great deal of information and opinion.
Could people make it clear which range thaey are talking about. Are they referring to the Carbon fibre leisure batteries or the Carbon AGM? Becoming adamantly critical about a brand without being clear which product is involved is less than fair.
Personally I have two 110 Volt leisure Carbon fibre Elecsols that have done 5 seasons of reasonably careful use without a blink. I cannot fit the AGM under the aft bunk. I hope I have not now ruined them as when I went to check the boat the Webasto would not start and investigation showed that at some time in the autumn I had knocked off the circuit breaker for the charger, like many boat problems, self inflicted.
Ian_Edwards
Well-Known Member
Battery cost per amp/hr
I'm shortly going to have to replace 4 x 135 amp hr Trojan wet batteries. I don't like wet batteries and have used AGM's with great success on my two previous boats. I've been looking for replacement AGMs or Gels. The battery boxes limit the width of the batteries I can fit to around 171mm. After some web searching I've come up with the following list. You can see that on a cost per amp hr basis Elecsol carbon Fibre AGM batteries come out very well and their website makes some very attractive claims about the number of cycles.
I'd normally expect to cycle the battery twice per day, an overnight cycle of cabin lights and anchor light and a daytime cycle of navigation electronics and autopilot, charging from a 130 amp alternator, morning and evening with an additional 200 watts of solar through the day. I also spend more than 100 days on board, spending most nights at anchor.
So with a claim of 2,500 cycles at 50% discharge, which is what I aim for, these batteries should last for over 10 years!
AGM/Gel Batteries
Make ........Type ......... Amp hrs length ... width ... height ... price inc VAT ... £/amp hr
Trojan ...... SCS225 ...... 130 .......... 355 ...... 171 ..... 251 ...... £283.92 .......... £2.18
Elecsol ..... EL135F ....... 135 .......... 328 ....... 171 .... 240 ...... £214.62 .......... £1.59
Enduroline . EX110AGM ...110 .......... 330 ....... 174 .... 238 ...... £199.99 .......... £1.82
Exide EP900 Dual AGM ... 100 .......... 330 ....... 173 .... 240 ...... £204.95 .......... £2.05
Rolls .... S12-128AGM .... 115 .......... 330 ....... 172 .... 215 ...... £291.43 .......... £2.53
Lifeline ..... GPL-27 ....... 100 .......... 333 ....... 172 .... 235 ...... £340.00 .......... £3.40
Haze Gel HZY MR12 110.. 145 .......... 342 ....... 173 .... 305 ...... TBA
Haze Gel HZY MR12 36 .. 110 ........... 329 .......173 .....209 ...... £175.99 .......... £1.60
Haze AGM HZB EV12-110 110 .......... 329 ........ 173 ... 209 ...... £160.00 .......... £1.45
Varta AGM LAD 115 ......115 .......... 328 .........172 ... 234 ...... £227.99 .......... £1.98
The prices are inc VAT and inmost cases include UK mainland delivery.
I must admit that I'm inclined to take a "punt" on the Elecsol Carbon Fibre AGMs. The only technical down side I can see is the limited charging rate of 36 amps for the 135 amp hr AGM, which (x4) is close the output from my alternator.
I'm shortly going to have to replace 4 x 135 amp hr Trojan wet batteries. I don't like wet batteries and have used AGM's with great success on my two previous boats. I've been looking for replacement AGMs or Gels. The battery boxes limit the width of the batteries I can fit to around 171mm. After some web searching I've come up with the following list. You can see that on a cost per amp hr basis Elecsol carbon Fibre AGM batteries come out very well and their website makes some very attractive claims about the number of cycles.
I'd normally expect to cycle the battery twice per day, an overnight cycle of cabin lights and anchor light and a daytime cycle of navigation electronics and autopilot, charging from a 130 amp alternator, morning and evening with an additional 200 watts of solar through the day. I also spend more than 100 days on board, spending most nights at anchor.
So with a claim of 2,500 cycles at 50% discharge, which is what I aim for, these batteries should last for over 10 years!
AGM/Gel Batteries
Make ........Type ......... Amp hrs length ... width ... height ... price inc VAT ... £/amp hr
Trojan ...... SCS225 ...... 130 .......... 355 ...... 171 ..... 251 ...... £283.92 .......... £2.18
Elecsol ..... EL135F ....... 135 .......... 328 ....... 171 .... 240 ...... £214.62 .......... £1.59
Enduroline . EX110AGM ...110 .......... 330 ....... 174 .... 238 ...... £199.99 .......... £1.82
Exide EP900 Dual AGM ... 100 .......... 330 ....... 173 .... 240 ...... £204.95 .......... £2.05
Rolls .... S12-128AGM .... 115 .......... 330 ....... 172 .... 215 ...... £291.43 .......... £2.53
Lifeline ..... GPL-27 ....... 100 .......... 333 ....... 172 .... 235 ...... £340.00 .......... £3.40
Haze Gel HZY MR12 110.. 145 .......... 342 ....... 173 .... 305 ...... TBA
Haze Gel HZY MR12 36 .. 110 ........... 329 .......173 .....209 ...... £175.99 .......... £1.60
Haze AGM HZB EV12-110 110 .......... 329 ........ 173 ... 209 ...... £160.00 .......... £1.45
Varta AGM LAD 115 ......115 .......... 328 .........172 ... 234 ...... £227.99 .......... £1.98
The prices are inc VAT and inmost cases include UK mainland delivery.
I must admit that I'm inclined to take a "punt" on the Elecsol Carbon Fibre AGMs. The only technical down side I can see is the limited charging rate of 36 amps for the 135 amp hr AGM, which (x4) is close the output from my alternator.
sailinglegend420
Well-Known Member
Then you need a much larger service bank, or a complete overhaul of your charging system. Charging by engine alone will never get your batteries anywhere near fully charged. Get about 600 watts of solar to guarantee fully charging your batteries to 100% every day. 600 watts will put about 150Ah per day back into your batteries.
With AGMs you don't need battery boxes, and they can be put anywhere as they don't gas. Look at how/where you can increase the size of your service bank - if you double it you still might be charging every day!!! Using a boat’s engine for this is a noisy, expensive and inefficient use of fuel, as well as putting unnecessary wear and tear on the engine. Change the starter battery for a very small Odyssey AGM to make space for more service batteries.
The Elecsol AGMs seem to be mainly designed as Solar/Standby batteries. You get what you pay for in this life.
Ian_Edwards
Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand what you're saying about the size of the domestic battery bank, but I also have a 5KVA generator and a Master Volt 100amp charger inverter. So I use the Master Volt Charger driven from the AC output of the generator when required and I also see over 100 amps regularly going into the 540 amp hrs of domestic batteries from the alternator.
All the lighting is LED and I use the electrical power sparingly, so I'm normally working the top 20% of the battery capacity.
Although AGMs can be stored anywhere, putting the new batteries into the existing battery boxes greatly simplifies the replacement, i.e. I can use the existing cabling and mechanical restraints.
I may add an additional battery up forward to power the windlass and the bow thruster, I'd use an AGM up forward as well and make sure that it's well secured in a battery box, even though technically I don't need one.
All the lighting is LED and I use the electrical power sparingly, so I'm normally working the top 20% of the battery capacity.
Although AGMs can be stored anywhere, putting the new batteries into the existing battery boxes greatly simplifies the replacement, i.e. I can use the existing cabling and mechanical restraints.
I may add an additional battery up forward to power the windlass and the bow thruster, I'd use an AGM up forward as well and make sure that it's well secured in a battery box, even though technically I don't need one.
Plevier
Well-Known Member
I would suggest you add another column to your comparison - weight.
Just about the most important factor in life (assuming they all use appropriate separators and grid designs, and these don't have much cost implication) is plate thickness. Weight is a pretty good indicator of this.
Take £/kg into account as well as £/Ah! (Make sure the Ah ratings you're comparing are on the same standard as well - 8h, 10h or 20hr, 20 or 25 degrees, 1.7vpc, 1.75vpc end voltage etc. All makes a difference.)
Lead - at around £1.40/kg - is a major cost factor in batteries and the one where savings can be made.
FWIW I would expect good quality wet batteries to stand up to your proposed use better than AGM.
Definitely rule out gel, they like to be charged slowly.
By and large you tend to get what you pay for. If something looks too good to be true it usually is - especially if manufacture outsourced somewhere and just badged and sold by a tiny non-manufacturing company that claims to have developed something wonderful that escaped all the big companies R&D efforts!
Sailinglegend - do you think your favourites would cope with this operating regime?
sailinglegend420
Well-Known Member
This response is a great shame. I find this all the time from people who ask for advice, and then don't take it because they can't be bothered to make the changes that are really needed.
Often many major changes need to be made from the initial manufacturers design/layout/installation, but often I hear comments that the manufacturer "must know best", so why should I change it?
From your list the only true deep cycle batteries are probably the Trojan and the Lifeline. Since you are charging twice a day a battery that will accept charge quickly will mean less alternator or Generator run time so the Lifelines would be a much better choice for your set up. Ours are now in their 8th year.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I don't think that the Trojan SCS225s are true deep-cycle batteries. I asked Trojan tech. guys to let me have graphs for some of their batteries to compare them. I found that the T105s were expected to last for many more cycles than 27TMX (&SCS range).
Alarm bells rang when I saw that 27TMX & SCS range had CCA quoted whereas T105s lacked that information. They were all described as deep-cycle but the graphs confirmed that T105s had a much better life expectancy. I think that the T105s were also cheaper (only £1.06/Ahr so cheaper than anything in list above).
Size was the only problem but I bit the bullet and re-built the battery box. Jeanneau had left plenty of wasted space underneath the original box and a little on one side. They could easily have built the boat with a larger box and saved me trouble. Builders don't consider mods. like this as they are just churning out a standard product. Doesn't mean owners can't make sensible changes.
I think that Jeanneau should give more thought because:
a) 3-4mm extra width was all that was needed to accept T105s instead of original 12V batteries.
b) No ventilation in box and lots of wasted space underneath. Floor can be lowered and vent fitted above at minimal cost (that's all I did).
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