2 shore power cables on a Fairline why?

[Truro Ex Pat]

Hi Guys
I am in Marseille and having problems with power, they only have the small 16a supplies and I have pluged my 2 cables in Squadron 60 and don't seem to be getting anything from shore power 2?
Not sure why we have this 2nd cable as we keep blowing the 16a shore power 1 and although 2 is connected nothing seems to work off 2?
Any ideas on how I can get the AC to work off 2 16a supplies would be welcome!

 

[Portofino]

It’s not clear how you have done it .
1-Is it a Y , two 16 docks into one then the one ( 32 or 64 ? ) “ in “ on the boat ?
2- Or two dock 16 ,s into ( via adaptors ) into two separate and different “ in “ plugs on the boat .

If it’s 1 then I understand there’s potentially a phase syncing issue ?

 

[MapisM]

Is it a Y , two 16 docks into one then the one ( 32 or 64 ? ) “ in “ on the boat ?

I hope not!
That would be the notorious tool discussed here in the past, aka LBOK (Lethal Bit Of Kit), which can only be used by people with a license to kill.

@TEP: someone with a specific knowledge of FL logic applied in their electrical systems might well point you in the right direction, but if not, the boat manual should (actually must) explain that.
Anyway, I'm afraid it is indeed possible that you can't run the AC, unless the plug which feeds it can be connected to a 32A socket.
Not saying that's how it's arranged, mind - just that it's a possibility.
You might try leaving on just one of the (surely multiple) compressors that you've got in your chiller unit, though.

 

[jfm]

I think one shore cable runs AC only while the other runs domestics. When you have 2 shore sockets available plug them both in . When you have only one socket available then there are two possibilities and I don't know which applies to your boat...

1. There is a voltage sensing relay in the boat which makes cable 1 run the whole boat (airco and domestic) so long as cable 2 isn’t plugged in

Or

2 there is no volt sensing relay so you need to connect both cables to the one shore socket by using a Y (which is not a LBOK, in view of the genders that such a Y would use- two females and one male). Or stuff two wires into one plug.

Regardless of that, I don’t think you can run either domestics or airco off 16amps so you have a bit of a dead end. I used to have this problem with Sq78 in Cala d’or when they gave me 2x 16A on the middle/island pontoon at the yacht club end, which is useless. You end up running a generator.

 

[jfm]

It’s not clear how you have done it .
1-Is it a Y , two 16 docks into one then the one ( 32 or 64 ? ) “ in “ on the boat ?
2- Or two dock 16 ,s into ( via adaptors ) into two separate and different “ in “ plugs on the boat .

If it’s 1 then I understand there’s potentially a phase syncing issue ?

#1 is LBOK as mapis says. Licensed to kill. But I’ve never seen two sockets on the same small boat shore power box use different phases. Much more likely to have the same phase used for the entire jetty, for small boats taking 32/16amps.

 

[superheat6k]

#1 is LBOK as mapis says. Licensed to kill. But I’ve never seen two sockets on the same small boat shore power box use different phases. Much more likely to have the same phase used for the entire jetty, for small boats taking 32/16amps.

The big problem here is that you simply do not know if neighbouring, but separate, socket outlets are on the same phase, until you plug in the second part of the LBOK and learn the hard way when your hand is removed by the resultant explosion.

In domestic distribution it is normal to run several houses from one phase then the next several from the next, etc. The idea is that the single phase loads will balance on the 3 phase supply overall along a typical street.

However, as soon as the words "3 Phase" are mentioned, and for most typical 'pluggers in' of shore power leads, the concept flies way over their heads, after all they simply want to run their AC, not understudy Nicola Tesla.

Because people do not normally plug their houses together this is never normally a problem in the domestic environment, but can catch out energy thiefs, but that Karma in its purest form.

It makes sense that individual pontoons would be on the same phase, but for very long trots this would cause balance issues. Also if the trot meets a perpendicular junction, how do you know the nearby socket on the perpendicular is on the same phase - you simply don't, unless you actually get out a voltmeter and check. Even then 16a commando / niphan sockets do not lend themselves to being checked, as it is difficult to hold a VM probe in close contact with the female tubular conductor the make plugs into.

The thing folk don't realise with opposing phases is that inadvertently connecting too together results not in a 240v, but a 400v short circuit, . No doubt a protective MCB somewhere will, one hopes, react very quickly, but possibly not before the connector in your hand has literally exploded.

The only safe way to have two separate supplies on any boat is to keep the entire supplies and distribution systems on board completely separate. Opposing phases of the same supply can never be paralleled.

 

[jrudge]

There is a Facebook post Running on this as well so apologies for the duplicate post.

The s60 will be the same as the s65 I had.

I called it think energy solutions to discuss it as I could not figure it out. We had 2x 64amp

It works as follows. Upto 64 amps comes from line 1. Amp 65 and above comes from line 2

So if you have 2 64 amp sockets all is good. You can pull 128 amps. Anything also and you are stuffed. Daft design.

We used to pull 90 plus amps quite regular. Back in port. Batteries charging. Ac on full. Hob on etc.

So with a 16a cable he can only draw 16amps. As I said. Daft.

And don’t connect two 16a. I did it in sardina ( actually on reflection it was the east coast of Corsica) They thought we were 12m not 21. We almost blocked the marina. Only 16a power. I know a solution. Oops. The whole place went out. They were very very unhappy and the culprit was clear as we were twice the size of anyone else !

 

[RupertW]

I tend to unplug the second cable of neighbouring boats if I need to plug in and there is just one plug per berth. Sometimes people get unaccountably cross. I do prefer marinas with a selection of sockets on each from 16 amp to the full 3 phase.

 

[jfm]

The big problem here is that you simply do not know if neighbouring, but separate, socket outlets are on the same phase, until you plug in the second part of the LBOK and learn the hard way when your hand is removed by the resultant explosion.

In domestic distribution it is normal to run several houses from one phase then the next several from the next, etc. The idea is that the single phase loads will balance on the 3 phase supply overall along a typical street.

However, as soon as the words "3 Phase" are mentioned, and for most typical 'pluggers in' of shore power leads, the concept flies way over their heads, after all they simply want to run their AC, not understudy Nicola Tesla.

Because people do not normally plug their houses together this is never normally a problem in the domestic environment, but can catch out energy thiefs, but that Karma in its purest form.

It makes sense that individual pontoons would be on the same phase, but for very long trots this would cause balance issues. Also if the trot meets a perpendicular junction, how do you know the nearby socket on the perpendicular is on the same phase - you simply don't, unless you actually get out a voltmeter and check. Even then 16a commando / niphan sockets do not lend themselves to being checked, as it is difficult to hold a VM probe in close contact with the female tubular conductor the make plugs into.

The thing folk don't realise with opposing phases is that inadvertently connecting too together results not in a 240v, but a 400v short circuit, . No doubt a protective MCB somewhere will, one hopes, react very quickly, but possibly not before the connector in your hand has literally exploded.

The only safe way to have two separate supplies on any boat is to keep the entire supplies and distribution systems on board completely separate. Opposing phases of the same supply can never be paralleled.

I agree all of that Trevor, and just to add in relation to your last sentence, having 2 phases unsynched on one boat is pretty common on a boat that is designed around having 100+Amps available when the user feels like it (which in the 24m segment means all good Italian boats, Fairline and Sunseeker, but not Princess because they are too cheapskate to do it properly). I have it - I mean I get two lots of unsynched 230v from two non synched gensets running simultaneously; from shore power + genset top up; and from 2 shoreleads plugged in to 2 separate 120A sockets (which might well be on different phases, unlike 16A adjacent sockets that tend to be on the same phase); and so on. Exactly as you say, the user must never parallel these, though fortunately if the boat is wired properly (such as automatically paralleling the two 230v separate distribution systems when only one genset is running, using fast VSRs) then they will never be paralleled if the user doesn't fiddle too much

 

[Mr Googler]

I tend to unplug the second cable of neighbouring boats if I need to plug in and there is just one plug per berth. Sometimes people get unaccountably cross. I do prefer marinas with a selection of sockets on each from 16 amp to the full 3 phase.

That’s completely out of order.

 

[Rocksteadee]

That’s completely out of order.

What? A boat using his socket and the neighboring berths socket, or unplugging a neighbors boat plugged into your socket?

 

[MapisM]

It makes sense that individual pontoons would be on the same phase, but for very long trots this would cause balance issues.

Bingo. At the moment, I am on a dock originally designed for smaller boats, all cabled with four 16A sockets on each pedestal (as opposed to the main dock, which is all 3-ph).
Actually, my boat is rather frugal with current, and 16A is enough even for A/C, at least on single compressor.
But depending on the other appliances demand (oven, water heater, etc.), the breaker inside the pedestal occasionally tripped off, so I had no other choice than deploy the LBOK.
Otoh, I made the mistake of reasoning along the same lines as jfm, i.e. expecting to have the same phase used for the entire jetty.
So, I just connected the two LBOK plugs to the first two 16A sockets available, without any previous check.

Now, aside from happily reporting to be still alive, I can confirm that there are indeed pontoons cabled using all 3 phases.
As I found out later, 3 of the sockets in each pedestal are connected to a separate phase, and the fourth shares a phase with one of the other three.
On the following pedestal, it's another of the three phases which is shared between two sockets, and so on.
Sounds like a logical way to minimize the balance issues that you mention.

Anyhow, the good news is that when I connected the two LBOK plugs, the breakers of both sockets immediately tripped off, before anything exploded in my hands, phew!
Besides, instinctively I connected the LBOK to the pedestal before connecting the boat cable to it, so the boat was totally unaffected.
Afterwards, it was just a matter of checking which were the two sockets in that pedestal connected to the same phase, and connect the LBOK to them.
It's working perfectly since then, btw with both plugs secured with cable ties to their sockets, to avoid any accidental disconnection.

The experience was a good reminder of how carefully these things must be handled, anyway.
In the past, I only used the LBOK in Croatia, without ever having this problem.
My guess is that they are more sensitive to the saving of running just one instead of three wires on each dock, rather than to any balance issues...

 

[MapisM]

What? A boat using his socket and the neighboring berths socket, or unplugging a neighbors boat plugged into your socket?

Both, in my books.
The latter, if nothing else, because you can't know the consequences of unplugging someone else's boat.
Why not ask the marina first?
They might unplug the neighbour boat themselves, or give you an extension cable connected elsewhere, whatever.
I'd rather have them decide what course of action is more appropriate, than feel entitled to do something silly myself just because someone else did.

 

[HelgeA]

Good morning
I have a SQ58@2012, quite sure that the SQ60 has the same system. Behind the 2 isolation transformers (2x32A) is a balancing unit from Energy Solutions. You need to connect to the same phase to work properly. On the box is a LED showing if the phase is correct. On 16A or 32A single phase sockets you have to try different variations to find the right one.
Rgds
Helge

 

[RupertW]

Both, in my books.
The latter, if nothing else, because you can't know the consequences of unplugging someone else's boat.
Why not ask the marina first?
They might unplug the neighbour boat themselves, or give you an extension cable connected elsewhere, whatever.
I'd rather have them decide what course of action is more appropriate, than feel entitled to do something silly myself just because someone else did.

Easier just to unplug - the marina office might be closed or take ages. The offending boat should be be able to deal with the consequence of a random power outage and let’s face it, they will know they are taking somebody else’s socket.

 

[MapisM]

Easier just to unplug - the marina office might be closed or take ages. The offending boat should be be able to deal with the consequence of a random power outage and let’s face it, they will know they are taking somebody else’s socket.

Yeah, 'course it's easier for you.
It was also easier to not even bother writing a brief note and leave it to the marina office, I guess? :ambivalence:

Besides, don't you appreciate the difference between a temporary power outage and some possibly critical equipment permanently disconnected? REALLY?

 

[jrudge]

I think this is a little unfair.

The position as described was that there is one socket per berth and the adjoining boat has taken 2

If I arrived then in the absence of another socket in easy reach (which of course could be unplugged by someone else ) then I also would simply unplug the interloper. They did know they were taking 2! I would prob plug in again on leaving

 

[petem]

I think I'd give it an hour and see if the owner re-appears. Then I'd call the marineros. If they did nothing and I was retiring for the night then I'd unplug the offending cable and plug my own in.

 

[Portofino]

I think this is a little unfair.

The position as described was that there is one socket per berth and the adjoining boat has taken 2

If I arrived then in the absence of another socket in easy reach (which of course could be unplugged by someone else ) then I also would simply unplug the interloper. They did know they were taking 2! I would prob plug in again on leaving

Me too .Especially if you need the Aircon on and the offender ( in a 1 plug per boat set up ) is absent .
Widening the debate on topic
We ask actually for a 32 A berth and generally spec up the asking size .Billing wise it’s off the reg cert the L the office girl uses to crunch the invoice.

Second point seeming most marinas have a one plug / boat, what’s the rationale for a builder of say a 60 mobo or 45 yacht designing a twin plug set up?
I saw a yacht ( think Hanse 45 ) with labelled sockets one was AC , other said “ boat “ , he only had one dock plug as the marina was busy and everybody was in on board so he had to choose which one , sort of alternate .
Just seemed odd to me .May be the AC was retrofitted, but the second socket in looked very OEM compared to the “ boat “

 

[Portofino]

Just discovered another post it pic site as the forum things not playing ball today .




Here .
There’s 4 16amp and one red 64 amp , but no 32 !
The 32 is across the pontoon as you can see I had to place the lead . There were two on that .
This is a visitors pontoon at Lavandou.
Water is separate the in those little boxes .

It filled up by close of business but every body got plugged in in a bit haphazard way .