183 day rule

[kunyang]

We are setting off for the Med in June. I'm getting a little concerned that my plans need adjusting. The plan is to cross to Portugal and spend a month cruising there. Moving on to Spain mid July and wintering in Cartagena. Obviously this exceeds 183 days, though we shall be travelling home acouple of times. Is there a problem with this plan. How would you do it? Any help appreciated. Dave

 

[macd]

This recent thread may answer your question as well as it's likely to be answered: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?449518-Spain-183-day-rule-still-being-implemented

My question is why the rush? There's a lot to savour...slowly...along that route.

 

[PlanB]

The 183 days are in a calendar year, so if you arrive in Spain after 1 July you have till 30 June (roughly) the following year. And it's you, not your boat, so any absences don't count.

 

[GrahamM376]

The 183 days are in a calendar year, so if you arrive in Spain after 1 July you have till 30 June (roughly) the following year. And it's you, not your boat, so any absences don't count.

Biggest problem with staying a while in Spain is the lack of border controls under Schengen. Unless flying out or having marina receipts in another territory, it's very difficult to prove you haven't exceeded allowed duration of personal stay there.

 

[kunyang]

Sounds like I shouldn't really have a problem if it is based on a calendar year. We are flying back to UK in November so I can get an operation on my shoulder if all works out.

Thanks guys

 

[boatman61]

If you are a Brit you've nothing to worry about... before the Referendum.. July onwards could be a whole different ball game..

 

[macd]

If you are a Brit you've nothing to worry about... before the Referendum.. July onwards could be a whole different ball game..

I suspect you're missing the point, quite massively.

 

[boatman61]

Please explain the point..
He's heading down the W coast of Portugal.. my boats been based out off Fig da Foz for 7yrs.. prior to that I cruised Andalucia Spain, Ibiza, Mallorca and Menorca as a full time live aboard wintering in Agua Dulce 3 yrs running.. pre Spain getting into the Euro and after.
I am a Brit.. I have had no problems whatsoever.. tho' some have on the Algarve mainly because they were arrogant anal Brits who reckoned they could anchor anywhere.. including 'protected areas'..
No one has mentioned or hassled me about 180 day limits back in the 90's, or this century..
So please guide this lost soul to 'THE POINT'..
If he's a Yank.. he's got 90 days in.. then he's out.. same as me in the US.. the boat has 18mths.. then out for 24hrs to reset the clock or pay the VAT

 

[Tranona]

Please explain the point..
He's heading down the W coast of Portugal.. my boats been based out off Fig da Foz for 7yrs.. prior to that I cruised Andalucia Spain, Ibiza, Mallorca and Menorca as a full time live aboard wintering in Agua Dulce 3 yrs running.. pre Spain getting into the Euro and after.
I am a Brit.. I have had no problems whatsoever.. tho' some have on the Algarve mainly because they were arrogant anal arseholes who reckoned they could anchor anywhere.. including 'protected areas'..
No one has mentioned or hassled me about 180 day limits back in the 90's, or this century..
So please guide this lost soul to 'THE POINT'..

The point is - if you know anything about Spain residency rules you will know that if you spend 183 days in any one calendar year in Spain you become resident and you have to declare your assets, which may be subject to taxes, both one off and on going. This potentially affects boat owners as there is a one off "environment" tax on importing the boat into Spain. This can be avoided if you plan for it, but for obvious reasons many people like the OP here wish to avoid getting into that situation.

This does not affect those who keep their boats in Spain as it is the status of the owner rather than the boat that is the issue. However, if you work or live in Spain, with or without a boat then you need to be aware of the rules. For boat owners there is good information on the subject on the RYA site.

 

[macd]

Thankyou, Tranona, for so succinctly explaining "the point".

Boatman61: of course it's true that many yotties overstay their 183 days without bothering with the legal formalities yet suffer no trouble from the authorities (I have myself). A small minority of others have not been so lucky.

The OP asked for the full story, which includes both the legal position and the way it operates in practice so that he can make an informed choice. Just doing it on the assertion that "If you are a Brit you've nothing to worry about" does not in my book qualify as an informed decision, not least because there has been expensive evidence that it's wrong. Hence my link in post #2 to a thread which covered this exhaustively.

 

[boatman61]

The 183 day rule applies to each country as I understand it.. and must run consecutively if I understand it right.. not the whole Schengen Area..
So.. if the OP sails direct from the UK (eg Falmouth) down to La Coruna then spends some time in the Ria's on his way to Portugal.. say 2mths.. he then moves into another country where he has 183 days... cruise down.. hang out in the Algarve then cross into West Spain where he now has 183 days.. to the best of my knowledge we are not subject to 183 days in a year.
That's why many Brits who have properties in Spain and Portugal and drive English cars head home.. clear themselves and their cars grabbing a holiday at the same time.
As for Residency.. I took Portuguese residency 3yrs back as I came up to Pension age so am now a resident but as I've said before.. they may hit you if your obviously 'Taking the Piss'
Spain.. no worries for me as I hold a Spanish Seaman's Book since the mid 90's.. but no residency.
If however I am wrong please tell me because having been based out of Spain and Portugal since '96 apart from Transat deliveries etc I have never once been questioned as to my validity to be in either country.

 

[macd]

The 183 day rule isn't about how long you can remain in the country. For most intents that's indefinite for EU citizens. It's about how long you can remain without becoming a de facto resident. If the authorities excercise these rules erratically, and they do*, please don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

*For what it's worth my personal experience is not very different from yours, in Spain and Greece.

 

[Tranona]

If however I am wrong please tell me because having been based out of Spain and Portugal since '96 apart from Transat deliveries etc I have never once been questioned as to my validity to be in either country.

The problem is that if you live on your boat in spain for more than 183 days you run the risk of being forced to become resident and then your boat is subject to tax - and many people have found this out the hard way.

However, as Mac says it seems to be enforced inconsistently, but that does not alter the fact that it is the rule. Furthermore if you do intend to live on your boat it is best to declare on arrival as there is a waiver on the main tax and you can still keep your UK registration on the boat. If you wish to avoid getting into that situation it is not difficult to arrange your plans to avoid the rule.

 

[boatman61]

So you are saying this is wrong...??

'If the OP sails direct from the UK (eg Falmouth) down to La Coruna then spends some time in the Ria's on his way to Portugal.. say 2mths.. he then moves into another country where he has 183 days... cruise down.. hang out in the Algarve then cross into West Spain where he now has 183 days.. to the best of my knowledge we are not subject to 183 days in a year in the EU just 183 consecutive days in each country.'

 

[macd]

So you are saying this is wrong...?? ...'

No, just that it's not what the OP asked.

 

[GrahamM376]

Just been having a quick read of various EC publications such as this one - http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/move-live/index_en.htm

It seems anyone residing in an EC state has to register with the local authorities if their stay exceeds 3 months in that state.

 

[boatman61]

Your registered the minute you check into the first port.. everything is done in the marina these days.. including immigration.

 

[Tranona]

Your registered the minute you check into the first port.. everything is done in the marina these days.. including immigration.

That is very misleading. There is no immigration process for EU citizens moving around the EU. Marinas may well record your details but it is not an "immigration" process and does not automatically trigger counting of days for residence. That is the whole point of the Shengen borderless zone - although as we now know it is starting to fall apart, but not in spain.

 

[GrahamM376]

That is very misleading. There is no immigration process for EU citizens moving around the EU. Marinas may well record your details but it is not an "immigration" process and does not automatically trigger counting of days for residence. That is the whole point of the Shengen borderless zone - although as we now know it is starting to fall apart, but not in spain.

Boatman61 is correct in that, in both Spain and Portugal a copy of the marina booking is sent to the authorities. Each area in Portugal appears to be stand-alone whereas I'm told the Spanish system is integrated and they can check up on people's movements and time in the country.

 

[macd]

Boatman61 is correct in that, in both Spain and Portugal a copy of the marina booking is sent to the authorities. Each area in Portugal appears to be stand-alone whereas I'm told the Spanish system is integrated and they can check up on people's movements and time in the country.

But surely the marina paperwork could only show where the boat (probably) was and for how long. The owner/crew could be anywhere in the intervening period.