10m Boat length in Greece (and the Med)

[jimbaerselman]

Doesn't the Treaty of Rome have something to say about freedom of passage within EU borders? That is indeed one of the most fundamental rights within the EU. How then do you apply restrictive taxes to furriners who wish to merely be present in your little patch of EU heaven?

Yes. EU citizens have freedom to travel throughout the EU. Their Means of Transport (MoT in EU speak) may also spend up to 180 days in another EU country too, as long as they can prove their home country regulations are being observed (car road fund disks up to date, insurance etc). After 180 days, MoT must pay whatever circulation taxes apply to locals - ie, no discrimination against furriners. It took nearly 15 years to unify EU regulations about how much freedom to roam cars should have - to prevent double taxation, to prevent tax avoidance, yet still allow cars reasonable freedom to roam for people who live in one country but work in another.

Circulation taxes are not yet common for boats, so there has been no need to apply these MoT rules to boats - or to bring individual country rules into line with each other - apart from preventing discrimination against visitors. As these taxes become more common, the rules already exist to handle them. Expect them.

 

[Ravi]

Sorry...I am Greek.(Title of a very recent spot-on theater play).And as the original bearer of bad news i must say that i don't get what's wrong with you people.Instead of forming a front against the new attempt under CA or whatever association is there you start a fight with the only people who actually try to help you.This is the reason that a few years ago i contacted Jim a few years ago to offer my help not as a member or with any other interest in the matter than the much missintepreted will to help you people,in the spirit that i was brought up with.As a result i've been insulted often for my ideas my country my profesion and so on - even about my english...Now you are doing the same thing to him.Honest to God you are worst than my country men and i don't know where he finds the courage to put up with some of you sometimes.Get it through your thick skulls he is there to help you and join him in protesting.This from someone who doesn't have the ability to vote with his keel.Good night and good luck to you all.

+1
Sadly, forums seem to be the place where a certain type of person comes to pour out their bitterness and vitriol. It is a shame since there is also so much reasoned debate, useful dialogue and good humour on here.

 

[NornaBiron]

Sorry...I am Greek.(Title of a very recent spot-on theater play).And as the original bearer of bad news i must say that i don't get what's wrong with you people.Instead of forming a front against the new attempt under CA or whatever association is there you start a fight with the only people who actually try to help you.This is the reason that a few years ago i contacted Jim a few years ago to offer my help not as a member or with any other interest in the matter than the much missintepreted will to help you people,in the spirit that i was brought up with.As a result i've been insulted often for my ideas my country my profesion and so on - even about my english...Now you are doing the same thing to him.Honest to God you are worst than my country men and i don't know where he finds the courage to put up with some of you sometimes.Get it through your thick skulls he is there to help you and join him in protesting.This from someone who doesn't have the ability to vote with his keel.Good night and good luck to you all.

Well said, Pleias. I sometimes think that people only come on here to have a go!

 

[jimbaerselman]

<snip>This from someone who doesn't have the ability to vote with his keel.Good night and good luck to you all.

Don't worry Dimitri. There's only one thick skull here, and he appears to be a fan of Nigel Farage, leader of the extreme right wing UKIP party. This party believes UK should leave the EU, UK should keep foreigners out with tight immigration controls.

All the other guys & gals who have posted here are enormously helpful, as you have been.

My skin is probably thicker than his skull, so I have no problem. I enjoy picking out illogical arguments by asking questions, which is naughty of me, since it winds him up. I should ignore trolls.

Stick with us. You're great value, an inside line to what's going on, and a friend in need.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

----snip
"I find it curious that many of us avoid visiting the port police to pay those few Euros in taxes and dues for a night spent in a Greek port and then complain because the Greeks find another way of raising revenue from visiting yachts."
----snip
A very good point! The irony of that hadn't occurred to me.

On the subject of receipts.... This year I travelled from the Aegean to the Ionian and it was noticable how insistent everyone was about giving out receipts. So, much so, that I was unable to buy a 5 Euro belt in Corfu because the shop till had broken and they refused to take cash without giving me a receipt!

On the original subject of 9m boats vs. 10m boats.......A mad friend is trying to convince me to cruise in a Wayfarer instead! At under 7 metres, maybe I won't need to worry about any legislation - just staying dry!

I always pay unless the post is unmanned. Always have.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Sorry...I am Greek.(Title of a very recent spot-on theater play).And as the original bearer of bad news i must say that i don't get what's wrong with you people.Instead of forming a front against the new attempt under CA or whatever association is there you start a fight with the only people who actually try to help you.This is the reason that a few years ago i contacted Jim a few years ago to offer my help not as a member or with any other interest in the matter than the much missintepreted will to help you people,in the spirit that i was brought up with.As a result i've been insulted often for my ideas my country my profesion and so on - even about my english...Now you are doing the same thing to him.Honest to God you are worst than my country men and i don't know where he finds the courage to put up with some of you sometimes.Get it through your thick skulls he is there to help you and join him in protesting.This from someone who doesn't have the ability to vote with his keel.Good night and good luck to you all.

Problem with "the CA forming a front in opposing the attempt" is that we would then be in the hands of that organisation's local man on the ground and do you know who that is? I havn't read a word of protest from him yet. All he seems to do is tell us to put up with and accept it.

 

[Ravi]

Problem with "the CA forming a front in opposing the attempt" is that we would then be in the hands of that organisation's local man on the ground and do you know who that is? I havn't read a word of protest from him yet. All he seems to do is tell us to put up with and accept it.

"we would then be in the hands of that organisation's local man on the ground and do you know who that is?"
Errr..... You ask us if we know who he is but,,,,, you are obviously much cleverer than us because YOU DO .......!!!!

"I haven't read a word of protest from him yet. All he seems to do is tell us to put up with and accept it."
Errr.. so you DO know who he is??????? And you disagree what he says.

And everyone else is wrong and you are right. Ok.

Mr. Cronin - You must be right as you are the most abusive and bullying person on this thread. Therefore, we will all agree with you. Now, that we have agreed that you are right, would you please go away and haunt another thread?

 

[nimbusgb]

Serious question? Will the tax replace the ridiculous DEKPA?

Why don't people seek out the stamps on a DEKPA? Simple really, I am on holiday for a couple of weeks. i'm not there to stand in queues in a tax office every day I move port to pay nominal amounts of money. Find that offices don't have forms, or staff or ink for the stamps. I'd rather spend a couple of hours injecting cash into the local economy via a waterfront taverna than a few hours messing about with officialdom.

If this tax will remove that requirement then i'll happily pay it and continue to enjoy the Greek sunshine and hospitality.

 

[nimbusgb]

According to the plans of the goverment in GREECE for the levy on leisure crafts as of 01/01/2014 sailingboats 7-8 200, 8-10 300, 10-12 400, above 12m 100/metre.Boats with foreign flags will be granted a discount of 30% on the above prices if they can prove that they berth permanent within the greek waters.More details will be posted when the legislature will be aproved by the parliament in the following days.

Does the wording not mean above 12m is 100 per metre above 12? So 15m would be 400 + 300.

 

[sailaboutvic]

being an Non CA member , although my arm have been twisted a few time ( right Tony ) to join , I am very interested what their stand is on this and if they have lobbied Greek government on behalf of Their members , after all it has been said they have over a thousand members in Greece ,
Could a CA member please answer this question please ?.
The question is in no way a criticism of the CA .

As I understand it , just sailing thought Greek water to reach other country would involved paying this tax , is this Legal ?

Regarding the Italian tax , we was in Italy when that was taken place and it only because everyone who was involved in the marine industry
from the small chandlers to the large marinas as well as the yachting organising , lobby the government that the law was drop , it wasn't from the kindness of their heart , maybe sailing organising from all EU country should be taken an interest in this and start lobbying the Greek government before it too late .

We left Greece last year and sailed west , we voted with our Keel , if this tax come in we will be doing it again this year , if enough people did this I think Greece would quickly chance it policy and stop treating yacht as some kind of ATM .

So much for free travel thought the EU .

 

[BrianH]

being an Non CA member , although my arm have been twisted a few time ( right Tony ) to join , I am very interested what their stand is on this and if they have lobbied Greek government on behalf of Their members , after all it has been said they have over a thousand members in Greece ,
Could a CA member please answer this question please ?.
The question is in no way a criticism of the CA .
As I understand it , just sailing thought Greek water to reach other country would involved paying this tax , is this Legal ?
Regarding the Italian tax , we was in Italy when that was taken place and it only because everyone who was involved in the marine industry
from the small chandlers to the large marinas as well as the yachting organising , lobby the government that the law was drop , it wasn't from the kindness of their heart , maybe sailing organising from all EU country should be taken an interest in this and start lobbying the Greek government before it too late .
We left Greece last year and sailed west , we voted with our Keel , if this tax come in we will be doing it again this year , if enough people did this I think Greece would quickly chance it policy and stop treating yacht as some kind of ATM .
So much for free travel thought the EU .

It is very difficult to lobby against something so vaguely worded and with a history of such draft proposals never getting passed into law. The Italian example was very different; a published and clear legal proposal with a defined path to implementation. The reaction up and down the country from the marine industry was well organised and succeeded in first making a distinction and reduction for sailing boats then another for older boats. The intention was to target the rich with their new mega-yachts. The final draft that passed into law was diluted to only applying to Italian-registered yachts. This year for the first time in the Adriatic I have noticed a number of large, new mobos, clearly with Italians in command, sporting a Belgian ensign ...

As told to me by my German friends, it was the Deutsche Segler-Verband (DSV) - German sailing association - that brought the Greek government before the EU commission (twice) for their illegal charges on visiting EU-registered yachts and who (twice) won their case.

So much for free travel thought the EU

The "free" in 'freedom of movement' does not refer to pecuniary matters but to unimpeded passage. Many EU countries impose a so-called 'Kur-Taxe', or health-cure tax on visitors, first dreamed up by cash-strapped municipalities that needed to fund amenities for tourists that had begun to flock to small, usually poor, mountain villages. Such a tax has been seen by such as Croatia as a cash-cow to impose on visiting yachts when they declare in (Sojourn Tax). It's all legal in the EU's eyes because it applies to all who arrive, including own nationals.

 

[charles_reed]

I do worry about Steve ( who's a lovely chap) having a heart-attack as a result of high systolic pressure from his indignation.

I must humbly request posters to lay off provoking him even when he is in the wrong.

As to the "CA representative" the CA is a voluntary organisation, Tony Cross could be claimed to be the CA "man in Crete". Jim Baerselman,though he no longer has a boat in Greece, works tirelessly on behalf of members, Pleias (God bless him) has consistently given professionally informed advice. All these people do it for free and thanks, not vituperation, should be given them for their public spirit.

I was in Kalamata when the original tax was implemented and poor Klaus had a wake rather than a launching party when he surveyed a €1833 tax bill for his (admittedly large) motor boat. I don't know if he ever paid it - I crept away and was bossed about by the Port Police in Katakolo, gung-ho to levy their tax.

All governments are kleptocrats and we'll find that all the Mediterranean ones will be taking their tolls one way or another - I'd expect Italy & Spain to be the next with France not far behind.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

being an Non CA member , although my arm have been twisted a few time ( right Tony ) to join , I am very interested what their stand is on this and if they have lobbied Greek government on behalf of Their members , after all it has been said they have over a thousand members in Greece ,
Could a CA member please answer this question please ?.
The question is in no way a criticism of the CA .

As I understand it , just sailing thought Greek water to reach other country would involved paying this tax , is this Legal ?

Regarding the Italian tax , we was in Italy when that was taken place and it only because everyone who was involved in the marine industry
from the small chandlers to the large marinas as well as the yachting organising , lobby the government that the law was drop , it wasn't from the kindness of their heart , maybe sailing organising from all EU country should be taken an interest in this and start lobbying the Greek government before it too late .

We left Greece last year and sailed west , we voted with our Keel , if this tax come in we will be doing it again this year , if enough people did this I think Greece would quickly chance it policy and stop treating yacht as some kind of ATM .

So much for free travel thought the EU .

Well said. The CA is little more than a chums club owning a rather useful piece of realestate in Limehouse.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I do worry about Steve ( who's a lovely chap) having a heart-attack as a result of high systolic pressure from his indignation.

I must humbly request posters to lay off provoking him even when he is in the wrong.

As to the "CA representative" the CA is a voluntary organisation, Tony Cross could be claimed to be the CA "man in Crete". Jim Baerselman,though he no longer has a boat in Greece, works tirelessly on behalf of members, Pleias (God bless him) has consistently given professionally informed advice. All these people do it for free and thanks, not vituperation, should be given them for their public spirit.

I was in Kalamata when the original tax was implemented and poor Klaus had a wake rather than a launching party when he surveyed a €1833 tax bill for his (admittedly large) motor boat. I don't know if he ever paid it - I crept away and was bossed about by the Port Police in Katakolo, gung-ho to levy their tax.

All governments are kleptocrats and we'll find that all the Mediterranean ones will be taking their tolls one way or another - I'd expect Italy & Spain to be the next with France not far behind.

I claim to be neither right nor wrong. I just want to expose people who support draconic foreign regiemes against their own countrymen and just like to appear to be always in the know to promote their own kudos.

PS don't worry about my BP Charles, it is well under control and I can do indignation without it fluctuating in the slightest. God knows I've had enough practice of it here!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

+1
Sadly, forums seem to be the place where a certain type of person comes to pour out their bitterness and vitriol. It is a shame since there is also so much reasoned debate, useful dialogue and good humour on here.

It's rather beyond that. The Greek government, having run into a brick wall in trying to get legitimate taxes out of their population are now attempting to fleece foreigners instead. They laid the groundwork for this by putting the proposition that their problems are all due to the foreigners, anyway.

 

[Glyka]

As I see it, the target is not the (max 1.000) visiting boats but the 3.000 flying the Greek flag + 500 Greek owned mega yachts that fly a foreign flag. As for the contribution of boaters to the local economy, even if all of them vote with their keel, they won't make any significant difference compared to the 14.000.000 visiting tourists.

What's more (no offence meant), from my experience, boaters spend much less than normal tourists as they don't pay for hotel/room and have many meals and drinks on board (even if they pay marina fees during all their stay, that's nothing compared to the hotel cost for the same number of persons).

 

[PLEIAS]

Glyka, please refrain from observations regarding who pays more and who's important for the revenues or what they get in return as this is irrelevant the way i see it.The point is what tax should be implemented and why.If you consider that this is the liveaboard site and that, means that people live here more than 183 days, or, that they keep cars etc here throughout the year and so on, then we will get in discussions without end.The rich can fly whatever rag they feel and cover it under an offshore or even local company end get even deductions for that.The 'troika' that approved the tax don't even care, doesn't take in mind the effect on local economies or jobs lost because they are as blind as the goverment.They just seek revenues and disregard growth.Sometimes i wonder how proud their teachers or parents must be that they gave away to the society such brilliant minds.

 

[Tony Cross]

I claim to be neither right nor wrong. I just want to expose people who support draconic foreign regiemes against their own countrymen and just like to appear to be always in the know to promote their own kudos.

PS don't worry about my BP Charles, it is well under control and I can do indignation without it fluctuating in the slightest. God knows I've had enough practice of it here!

It's rather beyond that. The Greek government, having run into a brick wall in trying to get legitimate taxes out of their population are now attempting to fleece foreigners instead. They laid the groundwork for this by putting the proposition that their problems are all due to the foreigners, anyway.

You do have a knack for seeing the worst in everything, is the glass ever half-full for you?

JimB is simply passing on information and using his long experience of living and working in Greece to offer his own personal observations. That's no different to what the rest of us do. I have no idea whether he supports the present Greek government or not but I do know that he works tirelessly for the benefit of CA members in particular and the cruising sailor in general.

If you think Greece is a "draconic [sic] foreign regime" then how would you classify North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe and a handful of other truly draconian regimes? The Greek government, as you well know, is struggling with a host of problems, many of which it is true are largely of their own making, but the extreme austerity into which the Greeks are being plunged is being forced on them by the "troika" whose objectives are less about saving Greece and more to do with saving the Euro.

I don't think it's unreasonable in principle for foreign yachts that spend the whole year in Greece to pay some sort of tax, akin (as has been mentioned) to the Council Tax paid in the UK. What has got most people up in arms over this proposal is the (in my view) excessive rates for over 12m vessels. As I have already said though, we have no idea whether that fee structure will survive in the final law or even whether the law will be implemented at all so it's a bit early to be slinging mud around.

If you insist on seeing the world in black and white then you'll always be disappointed.

BTW. It's nice to know that people think I work hard for the CA, and I do what little I can, but I am not an officer of the CA, I'm simply the local representative of the CA in Crete. I have no role in the management or governance of the CA.

 

[Glyka]

Pleias, you are right but my main point was this:

As I see it, the target is not the (max 1.000) visiting boats but the 3.000 flying the Greek flag + 500 Greek owned mega yachts that fly a foreign flag

.
The rest was a reply to

We left Greece last year and sailed west , we voted with our Keel , if this tax come in we will be doing it again this year , if enough people did this I think Greece would quickly chance it policy and stop treating yacht as some kind of ATM .

 

[BurnitBlue]

As I see it, the target is not the (max 1.000) visiting boats but the 3.000 flying the Greek flag + 500 Greek owned mega yachts that fly a foreign flag. As for the contribution of boaters to the local economy, even if all of them vote with their keel, they won't make any significant difference compared to the 14.000.000 visiting tourists.

What's more (no offence meant), from my experience, boaters spend much less than normal tourists as they don't pay for hotel/room and have many meals and drinks on board (even if they pay marina fees during all their stay, that's nothing compared to the hotel cost for the same number of persons).

14,000 000 who spend on average a little over a week here, and not even every year, booked and paid for via one of their home-town travel agencies. As against a yacht owner who spends, on average 180 days EVERY year here and who pays direct to Greece for his "running costs" plus the remaining 180 days to store his boat in a Greek owned storage facility.

The tourists, eat in house "hotel" meals paid in advance to the home-town travel agent. Spend the day lying on a free beach on a cheap towel. Their nights encouraging disco noise that annoys even the Greeks.

Edit to say that I had to stop writing the above because I couldn't stop laughing.