10m Boat length in Greece (and the Med)

[jimbaerselman]

Burnitblue,

I think you've missed the point that the UK tour operators who take the money have to pay for the local resources used by their holidaymakers, and these resources (transfers, accommodation, reps, ground handling for aircraft) tot up to about £50 per person per day over 10 days. In addition, each person spends about £50 a day on food, drink, excursions, souvenirs. So the sums: £100 x 10 x 14m = £14bn pa.

Total tourism, including independent travel, brings about 16% of GDP into Greece - £24bn pa

1,000 boats cruising for an average 120 days per year and spending about £50 a day = £6m, plus boat support of about £2,500 pa for repairs and wintering = £2.5m. Total £8.5m pa - rather less than 0.05% of the total. Multiply this by 2 or 3, it makes no significant difference.

Lets face it, visiting cruising yachts just don't register on the government radar.

 

[Glyka]

14,000 000 who spend on average a little over a week here, and not even every year, booked and paid for via one of their home-town travel agencies. As against a yacht owner who spends, on average 180 days EVERY year here and who pays direct to Greece for his "running costs" plus the remaining 180 days to store his boat in a Greek owned storage facility.

The tourists, eat in house "hotel" meals paid in advance to the home-town travel agent. Spend the day lying on a free beach on a cheap towel. Their nights encouraging disco noise that annoys even the Greeks.

Edit to say that I had to stop writing the above because I couldn't stop laughing.

I hope that you don't stop laughing if I notice that:

1. It's 14.000.000/year so whether they come every year or every 20 years is irrelevant.
2. You must understand that the "home-town travel agency" uses most of that money to pay the hotel etc.

Spend the day lying on a free beach on a cheap towel

Shouldn't they? Or, is it a matter of the towel's price?

 

[Glyka]

Clarification

Just to make myself clear.

I am not, by any means, saying that I don't care if you come, stay or leave as long as your contribution to the country's income is trivial. I am a boater, you are fellow boaters and in the end I'm going to pay as well (and I cannot leave). The governement OTOH probably is and wouldn't change a law that would get millions to the state just to protect some private income.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Burnitblue,

I think you've missed the point that the UK tour operators who take the money have to pay for the local resources used by their holidaymakers, and these resources (transfers, accommodation, reps, ground handling for aircraft) tot up to about £50 per person per day over 10 days. In addition, each person spends about £50 a day on food, drink, excursions, souvenirs. So the sums: £100 x 10 x 14m = £14bn pa.

Total tourism, including independent travel, brings about 16% of GDP into Greece - £24bn pa

1,000 boats cruising for an average 120 days per year and spending about £50 a day = £6m, plus boat support of about £2,500 pa for repairs and wintering = £2.5m. Total £8.5m pa - rather less than 0.05% of the total. Multiply this by 2 or 3, it makes no significant difference.

Lets face it, visiting cruising yachts just don't register on the government radar.

Many cruising folk get sometimes two or even three sets of visitors during the summer. Relatives, friends, whatever. They are tourists brought in by the cruising folk. I was laughing because of some peoples effort to quantify the effect of yachts on tourism. I did it to demonstrate how stupid it was. There is a great deal of glamour for tourists to amble round a waterfront looking and piling on their own dreams. Yachtfolk are an ambassador to tourism. The sight of a yacht under spinnaker at sunset will be an image that stays with a tourist because it actually brightens up a somewhat dismal scene from the beach, I am saying that the population of yachts in Greece gives Greece an identity and romance that old stone ruins lack.

I don't understand your last comment because as far as I can see, yachts are being targeted for extra tax so we are on some buggers radar.

I declare this from great experience of tourist spots. Without the glamour of yachts and super boats, a tourist spot would be just another clump of third world islands.

 

[Melody]

I mean no offence to my liveaboard friends but I don't think there would be a major impact on the local economy in most places if a lot of you sail somewhere else. The vast majority of yachts in Greece are owned by Greeks, not foreigners, and a big proportion of them are professional charter boats.

Charter yachts are an important part of Greek tourism - people who charter tend to be in higher income brackets. They not only spend money on the yacht, they typically eat out every night, buy souvenirs and clothes, visit bars, use taxis, and often have a night in a hotel at the start or end of their charter.

Charter yacht owners employ people every week to do maintenance, cleaning, laundry, and spend money annually on everything from boatyards and new equipment to testing fire extinguishers and paying accountants and lawyers - all sorts of things. I'd estimate the average charter boat puts 100K-150K per year into the economy. How does that compare with what you and your guests spend?

Most liveaboards I've met are very careful with their cash, as you can tell from several discussions in the forum, unlike people on holiday on a charter yacht, or professional boat owners who need to spend money to keep their boat up to inspection standards.

The new law sounds as if it will be quite good for charter boat owners. I believe there are proposals to simplify some of the paperwork for instance. Personally, I'm quite happy to pay a bit extra in tax if the bureaucracy is reduced in return.

As for liveaboards, I agree with jimbaerselman - I doubt if you register on the government radar at all.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I mean no offence to my liveaboard friends but I don't think there would be a major impact on the local economy in most places if a lot of you sail somewhere else. The vast majority of yachts in Greece are owned by Greeks, not foreigners, and a big proportion of them are professional charter boats.

Charter yachts are an important part of Greek tourism - people who charter tend to be in higher income brackets. They not only spend money on the yacht, they typically eat out every night, buy souvenirs and clothes, visit bars, use taxis, and often have a night in a hotel at the start or end of their charter.

Charter yacht owners employ people every week to do maintenance, cleaning, laundry, and spend money annually on everything from boatyards and new equipment to testing fire extinguishers and paying accountants and lawyers - all sorts of things. I'd estimate the average charter boat puts 100K-150K per year into the economy. How does that compare with what you and your guests spend?

Most liveaboards I've met are very careful with their cash, as you can tell from several discussions in the forum, unlike people on holiday on a charter yacht, or professional boat owners who need to spend money to keep their boat up to inspection standards.

The new law sounds as if it will be quite good for charter boat owners. I believe there are proposals to simplify some of the paperwork for instance. Personally, I'm quite happy to pay a bit extra in tax if the bureaucracy is reduced in return.

As for liveaboards, I agree with jimbaerselman - I doubt if you register on the government radar at all.

Go tell that to the island communities where you will hardly ever see a Greek privately owned yacht visiting!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

You do have a knack for seeing the worst in everything, is the glass ever half-full for you?

JimB is simply passing on information and using his long experience of living and working in Greece to offer his own personal observations. That's no different to what the rest of us do. I have no idea whether he supports the present Greek government or not but I do know that he works tirelessly for the benefit of CA members in particular and the cruising sailor in general.

If you think Greece is a "draconic [sic] foreign regime" then how would you classify North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe and a handful of other truly draconian regimes? The Greek government, as you well know, is struggling with a host of problems, many of which it is true are largely of their own making, but the extreme austerity into which the Greeks are being plunged is being forced on them by the "troika" whose objectives are less about saving Greece and more to do with saving the Euro.

I don't think it's unreasonable in principle for foreign yachts that spend the whole year in Greece to pay some sort of tax, akin (as has been mentioned) to the Council Tax paid in the UK. What has got most people up in arms over this proposal is the (in my view) excessive rates for over 12m vessels. As I have already said though, we have no idea whether that fee structure will survive in the final law or even whether the law will be implemented at all so it's a bit early to be slinging mud around.

If you insist on seeing the world in black and white then you'll always be disappointed.

BTW. It's nice to know that people think I work hard for the CA, and I do what little I can, but I am not an officer of the CA, I'm simply the local representative of the CA in Crete. I have no role in the management or governance of the CA.

We DO pay the equivalent of Council Tax as part of our annual marina fees AND VAT on them. In our case this totals over €5000 a year so we are already contributing our €1200!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Don't worry Dimitri. There's only one thick skull here, and he appears to be a fan of Nigel Farage, leader of the extreme right wing UKIP party. This party believes UK should leave the EU, UK should keep foreigners out with tight immigration controls.

All the other guys & gals who have posted here are enormously helpful, as you have been.

My skin is probably thicker than his skull, so I have no problem. I enjoy picking out illogical arguments by asking questions, which is naughty of me, since it winds him up. I should ignore trolls.

Stick with us. You're great value, an inside line to what's going on, and a friend in need.

There you go again! Putting words into people's mouths. Where did I say that I was a fan of UKIP? What I said was that "it was a job for Nigel Farrage" Incidentally, you must also stop attempting to mislead other countries' nationals with statements like "UKIP is an EXTREME right wing party". You know they aren't! They have a very good point about leaving the EU but I would never vote for them, however you are libelling them by trying to give our Greek friends here the impression that they are a sort of British "Golden Dawn". Are these the sort of tactics you intend to employ on the CA Council? I spoilt my ballot paper, incidentally.

 

[Ravi]

.... you must also stop attempting to mislead other countries' nationals with statements like "UKIP is an EXTREME right wing party". You know they aren't! They have a very good point about leaving the EU but I would never vote for them, however you are libelling them by trying to give our Greek friends here the impression that they are a sort of British "Golden Dawn".

From 9m boat lengths, to Maritime tax, to tourist revenue.... The thread was bound to end up with either politics, religion or sex!.

For the benefit of our non-UK members, aren't already sick to the teeth with their own politicians ..... UKIP is the party that our ?esteemed? Prime Minister famously described as '"a party of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists".

 

[Tony Cross]

From 9m boat lengths, to Maritime tax, to tourist revenue.... The thread was bound to end up with either politics, religion or sex!.

For the benefit of our non-UK members, aren't already sick to the teeth with their own politicians ..... UKIP is the party that our ?esteemed? Prime Minister famously described as '"a party of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists".

Where's the sex bit then? Did I miss that?!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

From 9m boat lengths, to Maritime tax, to tourist revenue.... The thread was bound to end up with either politics, religion or sex!.

For the benefit of our non-UK members, aren't already sick to the teeth with their own politicians ..... UKIP is the party that our ?esteemed? Prime Minister famously described as '"a party of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists".

As a lifetime member/supporter (couldn't afford the dues) of the Conservative party, I DO hope that you don't really assume the boy David to be a "proper" leader of the party.

 

[Melody]

Go tell that to the island communities where you will hardly ever see a Greek privately owned yacht visiting!

Steve, sadly I think these communities are only too aware themselves that they are off the government radar.

Go to any small island just now, even those within close reach of Athens (Aegina is the exception) and look at how many businesses are open. You'll find very few - the majority of people only live there during the summer months because there isn't any work over the winter. Many islands don't have a proper economy that can sustain the population all year round.

Apart from big islands like Crete and major tourist destinations like Mykonos and Santorini, it seems to me that the Greek government is as interested in the economics of its islands as the Westminster government is in its islands - which means they aren't much interested at all. And I speak here as someone who lived and worked in the Hebrides for many years as well as living and working in the Saronic islands.

If you're like me, as a sailor, you tend to think of Greece as being mainly composed of thousands of islands and ports, with a bit of mainland and mountains up north. The truth is, if you travel around, it's a huge, beautiful, mountainous country (I still find it amazing how vast the mountain ranges are) with many very pleasant towns, a few bustling cities, an enormous capital, thousands of villages, great expanses of agricultural land, and then dotted around its coast are all these little islands. Important as they are to yachtspeople, they don't feature highly in Greek economics from what I've seen.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Steve, sadly I think these communities are only too aware themselves that they are off the government radar.

Go to any small island just now, even those within close reach of Athens (Aegina is the exception) and look at how many businesses are open. You'll find very few - the majority of people only live there during the summer months because there isn't any work over the winter. Many islands don't have a proper economy that can sustain the population all year round.

Apart from big islands like Crete and major tourist destinations like Mykonos and Santorini, it seems to me that the Greek government is as interested in the economics of its islands as the Westminster government is in its islands - which means they aren't much interested at all. And I speak here as someone who lived and worked in the Hebrides for many years as well as living and working in the Saronic islands.

If you're like me, as a sailor, you tend to think of Greece as being mainly composed of thousands of islands and ports, with a bit of mainland and mountains up north. The truth is, if you travel around, it's a huge, beautiful, mountainous country (I still find it amazing how vast the mountain ranges are) with many very pleasant towns, a few bustling cities, an enormous capital, thousands of villages, great expanses of agricultural land, and then dotted around its coast are all these little islands. Important as they are to yachtspeople, they don't feature highly in Greek economics from what I've seen.

Thast just proves the point that they need to concentrate on recovering all the unpaid tax due from their citizens rather than penalise visitors who bring them lots of money.

 

[Ravi]

Thast just proves the point that they need to concentrate on recovering all the unpaid tax due from their citizens rather than penalise visitors who bring them lots of money.

Run down public services, a failing health service, a price on education that means that the poor can't go to University, high unemployment and a huge national debt - all resulting from irresponsible borrowing and tax evasion and tax avoidance. You could be talking about the UK as much as Greece. Except in the UK, it is the large multinationals and billionaires like Rupert Murdoch who don't pay any tax whereas in Greece it seems to be the general populace.

At least Greece has the sunshine!

 

[Tony Cross]

Run down public services, a failing health service, a price on education that means that the poor can't go to University, high unemployment and a huge national debt - all resulting from irresponsible borrowing and tax evasion and tax avoidance. You could be talking about the UK as much as Greece. Except in the UK, it is the large multinationals and billionaires like Rupert Murdoch who don't pay any tax whereas in Greece it seems to be the general populace.

At least Greece has the sunshine!

And that really is the problem. It's not that Greeks are any more greedy or shifty or any less law-abiding than Brits (for example). It's just that the tax system in the UK makes it very difficult for most of us to avoid tax. The system in Greece is so complex and so badly managed that it's much too easy to avoid taxes.

I did read a week or so ago in the online English language paper Kathimerini, that in 2012 the Greek government collected just over 46% of the taxes they were owed. And that's just the taxes they know about, it didn't include the massive under-reporting of incomes and assets that goes on.

The problem is that Greece is living on handouts and the lenders are demanding swingeing tax increases now to achieve a short-term political fix, rather than a root-and-branch restructuring of the taxation system to put Greece back on a more stable economic footing.

Greece is sick, and it is largely their own fault. But the medicine being applied is designed to treat the visible symptoms and not the underlying disease.