10m Boat length in Greece (and the Med)

[grumpygit]

As others already advised, it pays to cool down and wait for the exact finally voted wording as at present it goes like “The proposed bla-bla, does not apply to professional recreational vessels, regardless of total length, to private motorized recreational vessels of an overall length up to ten (10) meters, as well as private sailboat recreational vessels of an overall length of up to twelve (12) meters, with a Greek or European flag, etc “
It also mentions options for partial stay.

Later editing
Pls disregard all above as this was previous law

Calm at this time may be the answer. I believe the previous attempt of a law was "over 10m for power" and " over 15m for sail" and it never happened.
We cannot alter the ways of how the Greek minds or laws are perceived. It's a tunnel vision that these people seem to have and the outcome may be completely different (hopefully). It may be a case of them beating their chests in the attempt for grasping for more tax revenue.
Another time they tried this with a cruising tax, it was thrown out by EU law and the same will probably happen, if not one can only assume that it will or could become common practise through out the eurozone.
IF it does happen there will be many losers but mostly the Greeks them selves. Many businesses rely on revenue from the sailing community, taverna's, mini/main supermarkets, fuel companies, marine suppliers and engineers and the list goes on, all of which are suffering to a degree already due to the "Greek Crisis". But we the boating community are only very small cogs in a very big wheel.
Greek boat yards are already filling with boats that have been dumped or the banks own through loan defaults or bankruptcies and there is no sign of an improvement on the horizon, any other cost/tax will just compound the problems that are out there.
Let's just wait and see what happens and hope commonsense prevails. On this I maybe won't hold my breath!!
For me if I have to pay the tax I will have to pay it, at the moment I don't want to move on, and to be on the bright side, won't the anchorages be nice and quiet . . . .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

My post reported part of the Greek stated background to the proposed law. I'm sorry if you think I'm naive to report their statements.

It is, of course, quite possible that the Greek stated aims are naive. That's different. But it seems you prefer to shoot messengers rather than understand their messages.

Robbery is the use of force, threat of force, fear, or other coercion to permanently deprive someone of their property. You define us as customers.

Customers are not compelled to buy if they don't like the terms of trade being offered. They may walk away to another supplier.

Your choice.

I don't know what makes you think that Greeks dependent on visiting yacht income aren't aware of this threat to their livelihood. Hopefully, intelligent posts on this forum help them argue their case. There's no need for "Mr Baerselman" to tell them. That would be an insult.

As to your naivety, I have re-read your post and it can be taken as either direct reporting or as a statement of your own conclusion based upon your reading of the Greek press. You claim that it was the former and I accept that. As to your definition of Robbery, I think that actually goes to prove my point as I would need to just abandon a sizeable investment by just "walking away" and am therefore a "customer" being robbed.

 

[Tony Cross]

I've already posted this on the CA fourm but it's worth repeating here I think.

I find it curious that many of us avoid visiting the port police to pay those few Euros in taxes and dues for a night spent in a Greek port and then complain because the Greeks find another way of raising revenue from visiting yachts.

The situation on Crete is much as Vyv described it, receipts are now the norm and we have seen tax inspectors making spot checks on tavernas and bars too, they were even in the weekly fruit and veg market a few weeks ago. The problem with taxes in Greece is not that the Greeks themselves are any greedier than the rest of us, it's simply that the Greek taxation system is so convoluted that it's very easy to avoid them.

As an example, look how easy it is for visiting yachts to avoid paying port fees and taxes and how readily most of us (including me) take advantage of that. We're thus tax avoiders here too.....

 

[BrianH]

Calm at this time may be the answer. I believe the previous attempt of a law was "over 10m for power" and " over 15m for sail" and it never happened.

A similar yacht tax was proposed in Italy by Mario Monti when he became the interim prime minister in 2011. It was implemented but not before a succession of amendments that culminated in being imposed only on yachts on the Italian register. Many emergency meetings of concerned business involved in the leisure marine industry were held to find ways to lobby the government to prevent the perceived exodus of foreign vessels that would follow such a law. They succeeded and I would expect a similar action in Greece.

Another time they tried this with a cruising tax, it was thrown out by EU law and the same will probably happen, if not one can only assume that it will or could become common practise through out the eurozone.

I believe that EU law allows such if applied to all, including domestic citizens. Croatia has repealed its vignette cost for EU-registered craft now that it has acceded to the union but introduced the imposition of a so-called Sejourn tax on entry. Strange how that costs me a similar amount to the original ...

 

[jimbaerselman]

As to your naivety

You're entitled to your opinions, but it doesn't always help to express them.

As to your definition of Robbery, I think that actually goes to prove my point as I would need to just abandon a sizeable investment by just "walking away" and am therefore a "customer" being robbed.

I had rashly assumed that your €100,000 was paid willingly for services rendered over the past few years. I didn't realise it was an investment that you were going to lose if the proposed changes became law. Can you explain so others can avoid the trap?

I accept a point already made - a few of those laid up at the moment may be coerced into payments from €200 to €400 for a year's cruising they don't want.

And yes, I foresee that monthly or annual circulation taxes will eventually become the norm for all vessels in those Mediterranean countries which have large numbers of anchorages relative to the number of marinas. There is an expense in policing and managing this mass of traffic.

Sounds a bit like the car's road fund licence, doesn't it? that's the EU precedent.

 

[grumpygit]

I accept a point already made - a few of those laid up at the moment may be coerced into payments from €200 to €400 for a year's cruising they don't want.

And yes, I foresee that monthly or annual circulation taxes will eventually become the norm for all vessels in those Mediterranean countries which have large numbers of anchorages relative to the number of marinas. There is an expense in policing and managing this mass of traffic.

Sounds a bit like the car's road fund licence, doesn't it? that's the EU precedent.

I suppose we all suspected something like this might happen here in Greece, it's been on the cards for long enough and the Greeks are desperate for cash through taxes. I do believe that it won't stop with the Greeks and it will spread through the Eurozone along with changes in European law.
Where I would have missed the first attempt "over 15m" I am well and truly going to be hit if this goes through and so many more with these calculations will be caught in the net which would have previously escaped. This proposed tax for me does seem very unfair proportionally to vessel size, sail or motor.
Let us all hope it won't be as bad as it seems as laid out in what information we have learnt to the present. Although I have not seen a peep of this move in the Greek press and at the moment nothing is carved in stone.
Remember the old adage, The only two things you can rely on Earth is taxes and death . . . . . !!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I've already posted this on the CA fourm but it's worth repeating here I think.

I find it curious that many of us avoid visiting the port police to pay those few Euros in taxes and dues for a night spent in a Greek port and then complain because the Greeks find another way of raising revenue from visiting yachts.

The situation on Crete is much as Vyv described it, receipts are now the norm and we have seen tax inspectors making spot checks on tavernas and bars too, they were even in the weekly fruit and veg market a few weeks ago. The problem with taxes in Greece is not that the Greeks themselves are any greedier than the rest of us, it's simply that the Greek taxation system is so convoluted that it's very easy to avoid them.

As an example, look how easy it is for visiting yachts to avoid paying port fees and taxes and how readily most of us (including me) take advantage of that. We're thus tax avoiders here too.....

Bit of a difference between €24 and being shafted for €1300 EVERY year!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

You're entitled to your opinions, but it doesn't always help to express them.I had rashly assumed that your €100,000 was paid willingly for services rendered over the past few years. I didn't realise it was an investment that you were going to lose if the proposed changes became law. Can you explain so others can avoid the trap?

I accept a point already made - a few of those laid up at the moment may be coerced into payments from €200 to €400 for a year's cruising they don't want.

And yes, I foresee that monthly or annual circulation taxes will eventually become the norm for all vessels in those Mediterranean countries which have large numbers of anchorages relative to the number of marinas. There is an expense in policing and managing this mass of traffic.

Sounds a bit like the car's road fund licence, doesn't it? that's the EU precedent.

Why do you ALWAYS take the foreigner's side Mr Baerselman?

 

[NornaBiron]

Why do you ALWAYS take the foreigner's side Mr Baerselman?

Why do you always have to argue and shoot the messenger? If you don't like it go somewhere else. Quit moaning about something you have little influence over and leave the rest of us to discuss it politely.

 

[grumpygit]

I have just been down to the boatyard to check the boat and while I was there I spoke with the manager for Athenian Yachts. He seemed pretty clued up on the issue and his take is that it is only a proposal and nothing has been voted on as yet, anything else should be at this time be taken as rumour till the vote has taken place. He also stated that are good things in the proposal also, but I bet as sure as hell it won't soften the blow for parting with cash. . .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Why do you always have to argue and shoot the messenger? If you don't like it go somewhere else. Quit moaning about something you have little influence over and leave the rest of us to discuss it politely.

And what conclusion will you come to? Just to capitulate, I expect. All of my Greek friends are against it, believing that it is just the government cow-towing to those who believe that their woes are all the foreigners' fault. Greece is a financial basket case and they need it ramming down their throats (but POLITELY!) that they need us more than we need them! An exception to the norm but that mad schoolteacher woman who used to run a certain taverna in Gouvia Village (Plate smashing,Sirtaki and awful food) told us that she thought that "Queen Elizabeth ought to sell all her castles and lands to help the Greeks since she was married to one!

We need Nigel Farrage on this one.

 

[NornaBiron]

And what conclusion will you come to? Just to capitulate, I expect. .

There is no capitulation involved. We are visitors to Greece and customers of their facilities, should we wish to use them. As long as the Greek Government operates in accordance with EU legislation and applies the rules to all member states (including themselves) there is little that we can do about it.

I, for one, will wait and see if the proposals make it through to law and if they are then implemented.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I have just been down to the boatyard to check the boat and while I was there I spoke with the manager for Athenian Yachts. He seemed pretty clued up on the issue and his take is that it is only a proposal and nothing has been voted on as yet, anything else should be at this time be taken as rumour till the vote has taken place. He also stated that are good things in the proposal also, but I bet as sure as hell it won't soften the blow for parting with cash. . .

Do you remember that in the previous attempt, some peole claim that they were actually forced to pay a charge by local PPs even before it came anywhere near to becoming law? I hope that nobody lets themselves be similarly conned this time.

 

[jimbaerselman]

<snip> I had rashly assumed that your €100,000 was paid willingly for services rendered over the past few years. I didn't realise it was an investment that you were going to lose if the proposed changes became law. Can you explain so others can avoid the trap?

I see you ducked the answer by suggesting my motives are suspect . . .

Why do you ALWAYS take the foreigner's side Mr Baerselman?

because I'm a boring pedant who likes to understand why things happen. Like - how come you're going to lose €100,000 to Greek robbers.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Do you remember that in the previous attempt, some peole claim that they were actually forced to pay a charge by local PPs even before it came anywhere near to becoming law? I hope that nobody lets themselves be similarly conned this time.

Those people were made to pay after the law was passed, so someone has mis-reported the facts. I posted a copy on the CA website of the port police internal instruction which suspended the law's implementation. This enabled some crews to produce evidence that they need not pay. The suspension occurred a month or two after the law was passed. I believe the law still stands, but haven't actively checked.

Another brick in the wall proving I ALWAYS take the foreigner's point of view, eh?

 

[grumpygit]

Do you remember that in the previous attempt, some peole claim that they were actually forced to pay a charge by local PPs even before it came anywhere near to becoming law? I hope that nobody lets themselves be similarly conned this time.

Yes I do remember very well. I for one was told by the PP to go to the tax office and pay my tax before they would sign me out. It was in there handbook and highlighted with highlighter, all in Greek of course. My saving grace was I knew the law ( law, what law) in English and the criteria was "over 15m" and I was 15m dead, not "over". An acquaintance of mine who is South African has had the Greek establishment tied up in litigation for the last 3/4 years over the first tin pot law. But Mr Cronin please remember we are visitors here in Greece and it's their Country and their rules. You can whinge and bleat a much as you will but it will not alter a damn thing. Please be constructive in your debate without doing character assassination to other forum contributors . . .sorry it just doesn't help.

 

[MASH]

As long as the Greek Government operates in accordance with EU legislation

Doesn't the Treaty of Rome have something to say about freedom of passage within EU borders? That is indeed one of the most fundamental rights within the EU. How then do you apply restrictive taxes to furriners who wish to merely be present in your little patch of EU heaven?

 

[jordanbasset]

Doesn't the Treaty of Rome have something to say about freedom of passage within EU borders? That is indeed one of the most fundamental rights within the EU. How then do you apply restrictive taxes to furriners who wish to merely be present in your little patch of EU heaven?

It seems to apply to every one regardless of nationality so I think it would comply with E.U. Law

 

[Ravi]

----snip
"I find it curious that many of us avoid visiting the port police to pay those few Euros in taxes and dues for a night spent in a Greek port and then complain because the Greeks find another way of raising revenue from visiting yachts."
----snip
A very good point! The irony of that hadn't occurred to me.

On the subject of receipts.... This year I travelled from the Aegean to the Ionian and it was noticable how insistent everyone was about giving out receipts. So, much so, that I was unable to buy a 5 Euro belt in Corfu because the shop till had broken and they refused to take cash without giving me a receipt!

On the original subject of 9m boats vs. 10m boats.......A mad friend is trying to convince me to cruise in a Wayfarer instead! At under 7 metres, maybe I won't need to worry about any legislation - just staying dry!

 

[PLEIAS]

Sorry...I am Greek.(Title of a very recent spot-on theater play).And as the original bearer of bad news i must say that i don't get what's wrong with you people.Instead of forming a front against the new attempt under CA or whatever association is there you start a fight with the only people who actually try to help you.This is the reason that a few years ago i contacted Jim a few years ago to offer my help not as a member or with any other interest in the matter than the much missintepreted will to help you people,in the spirit that i was brought up with.As a result i've been insulted often for my ideas my country my profesion and so on - even about my english...Now you are doing the same thing to him.Honest to God you are worst than my country men and i don't know where he finds the courage to put up with some of you sometimes.Get it through your thick skulls he is there to help you and join him in protesting.This from someone who doesn't have the ability to vote with his keel.Good night and good luck to you all.