10m Boat length in Greece (and the Med)

cmedsailor said:
http://sarotiko.blogspot.com/2013/11/blog-post_5609.html#.Un6eMZhCUuU.email

Sorry it's in Greek but numbers are correct.
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Thanks for that, Google translate does a reasonable job of translating it. The jump from €400 for a 12m boat to €1300 for a 13m boat must surely be an error, we'll see I suppose. It will also be interesting how they define "moored in Greek waters"? I guess that will need a 12-month marina contract which isn't the same thing at all. More muddle I think...... :(
 
It's not all bad news as they are thinking of allowing all private EU boats to be chartered ''occasionaly'' without any other obligation except to be in compliance with the standards of professional charters.Something that everybody knows that its been happening allready...
 
PLEIAS said:
It's not all bad news as they are thinking of allowing all private EU boats to be chartered ''occasionaly'' without any other obligation except to be in compliance with the standards of professional charters.Something that everybody knows that its been happening allready...
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It IS all bad news for those of us with a 13m boat and I thought this had been blocked by the EU !

Edit: Ive just read the translation and I think its saying that its going to be €400 + €100 for each metre over 12m for boats over 12m
 
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No it says as of the first meter but i've seen this dream or nightmare before.Now everybody will have his own say about the subject like it happened a couple of years ago.Wait for the thing to be aproved in its final form I KNOW i've seen things changing completely in the last second with a mere comma...And then it's allready middle of November - by the time it usually takes them to define the whole procedure of payment it will be February and then some.
 
Your interpretation of 100 per m is what I understand. There's a % off for professional boats and for those kept in Greece. When our accountant worked it out for us the difference looked as if it was going to be a few 100 more p.a for a 14m professional yacht.

The law hasn't been passed yet so no point getting too concerned - anything could still happen!
 
The limited translation which The Cruising Association is using interprets the Greek version as saying "Above 12m, €100 per m" - and then "from the first metre" and "from the first measure" as conditions when calculating that. That interpretation creates a big step increase for boats more than 13m, or maybe 12m, which is not logical.

What would be logical is if the proper interpretation (or proper implementation once the law was passed) said "an additional €100 per metre for each metre above 12m".

It is possible that this concept is hidden by a bad translation, or perhaps even by bad drafting of the proposed law. Here's hoping that's the case.

In the meantime, The Cruising Association (Tony, myself, and other members of our Mediterranean Section) are working on the case, with the help of Pleias. And many thanks to Pleias, who has given us a wide range of references to follow up - in Greek! (he has to work for a living . . .)
 
Even in Greek is a little bit misleading.
It mentions that the charge will be imposed on all vessels, irrespective of flag, that sail, docked or are anchored in Greek waters. So what about boats visiting the country for some days (or some period in general).
I guess we can only wait and see.
 
cmedsailor said:
It mentions that the charge will be imposed on all vessels, irrespective of flag, that sail, docked or are anchored in Greek waters. So what about boats visiting the country for some days (or some period in general).
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Perhaps analogous to the Croatian vignette principle of imposing a year's cruising fee regardless of whether you were passing through on a one-time passage for only a few days or remaining for the maximum 90 days. Of course you could always return within that 12 month period at no extra cost. From the 1st January, 2014 that will no longer apply for EU-registered boats, although they thought ahead enough to introduce the Sojourn tax for all that keeps the euros rolling in.
 
cmedsailor said:
Even in Greek is a little bit misleading.
It mentions that the charge will be imposed on all vessels, irrespective of flag, that sail, docked or are anchored in Greek waters. So what about boats visiting the country for some days (or some period in general).
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The preamble to the law makes it clear that one of its aims is to encourage people to stay for longer periods in Greece. Hence the one fee for a whole year. Once you pay, you can stay til 1/1/next year.

What they may not have thought through is the effect of using calendar years, rather than issuing 12 month circulation permits. It forces two payments for those who winter in Greece. A bit like the midnight to midnight port fees, which force two days payment for a one night stop. Using calender years will encourage some boats to lay up in other countries - to avoid a second year's fees as soon as they hit the water at launch time. The 30% discount for being based in Greece only partly makes up for this.

For boats over 12m, of course, the monthly payment option kicks in, so they only need pay for a month or two at a time. And when out of the water, they're not "sailing, docked or anchored", so maybe the their story isn't as painful as it first seems.
 
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Hmmm, probably the end result would be to discourage people visit Greece at all. What about the Italians who want to just sail across the Adriatica sea and visit the Ionian islands for a week or so during their summer cavations? Or similarly boats sailing from Israel, Turkey, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on. Will all these have to pay extra €200, €300 or whatever for a few days? This law really needs some thought.
 
cmedsailor said:
Hmmm, probably the end result would be to discourage people visit Greece at all. What about the Italians who want to just sail across the Adriatica sea and visit the Ionian islands for a week or so during their summer cavations? Or similarly boats sailing from Israel, Turkey, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on. Will all these have to pay extra €200, €300 or whatever for a few days? This law really needs some thought.
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Sorry to keep banging on about Croatia but exactly the same happens every summer there. I, and thousands of Italians, cross the Adriatic to cruise there and pay the hundreds of euros for the few weeks we are there.

Jim's point about the calendar year is pertinent. Croatia seriously considered changing to that from the 12 month one (according to the Umag harbour master) to achieve more revenue but was overtaken by the EU accession before implementation. You can only squeeze the lemons so much.

I have only twice made the long distance from the northern Adriatic to the Ionian and if this ever does get implemented will certainly not bother again. That is because it is only sensible when single-handed, as I usually am, to make it in stages using the many Croatian anchorages as Italy has too few. To pay for two country's exorbitant charges is not attractive, despite the delights of both.
 
I find JB's post #31 staggeringly naive!

It isn't to encourage it is to ROB

Here is my response to his original posting on the CA forum:-

""Since we are their "customers" in that we, as non nationals spend in their country, this tax is as legitimate as them charging us for buying their olives, feta and farmed fish.
Since most if not all harbour authorities insist on charging not only mooring fees but the "Arrival Tax" in addition, can we assume that this will now no longer be charged to boats regarded as "permanently based" in Greece? I doubt that very much!
We all know the reason why their countery is in such a dire economic position and it is not OUR responsibility to bail them out.
There is plenty of money in Greece but the government doesn't know where it is. Again, that is not our problem.

Kindly convey these views to your Greek contacts, Mr Baerselman. I think you will find that they are shared by the majority of the Association's membership who support Greece's economy to significant levels. In my case alone, over the last ten years this has amounted to well in excess of €100,000. Now they want some more! Let them take it from their own nationals in recompense for historic avoided taxes, if they wish but they are totally unjustified in charging their guest visitors too.""
 
I find JB's post #31 staggeringly naive!
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My post reported part of the Greek stated background to the proposed law. I'm sorry if you think I'm naive to report their statements.

It is, of course, quite possible that the Greek stated aims are naive. That's different. But it seems you prefer to shoot messengers rather than understand their messages.
ROB
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Robbery is the use of force, threat of force, fear, or other coercion to permanently deprive someone of their property. You define us as customers.

Customers are not compelled to buy if they don't like the terms of trade being offered. They may walk away to another supplier.

Your choice.

I don't know what makes you think that Greeks dependent on visiting yacht income aren't aware of this threat to their livelihood. Hopefully, intelligent posts on this forum help them argue their case. There's no need for "Mr Baerselman" to tell them. That would be an insult.
 
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affinite said:
It IS all bad news for those of us with a 13m boat and I thought this had been blocked by the EU !

Edit: Ive just read the translation and I think its saying that its going to be €400 + €100 for each metre over 12m for boats over 12m
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With our length of 12.7m the proposal is enough for us to change our plans to move our marina base from Croatia to Corfu next Easter. Trouble with waiting for final interpretation is that we already need to sort out Gouvia booking in the next month or so, as a lot of other plans rest on having the berth there.

Grrr..and this will be us paying a tax so that the locals won't have to. Not a single shop or restaurant in Corfu this year took anything but cash for obvious reasons - the Greek government gets its money from tourists and German taxpayers.
 
RupertW said:
Grrr..and this will be us paying a tax so that the locals won't have to. Not a single shop or restaurant in Corfu this year took anything but cash for obvious reasons - the Greek government gets its money from tourists and German taxpayers.
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It has been widely reported that shops have been forced to replace their tills with ones that are directly connected to Greek taxation authorities. Every transaction passes through the till and staff are insistent that a receipt is taken. On Leros the vast majority of transactions in all shops are between nationals and the above is clearly seen. We visited many islands in the Aegean this year and found just the same at all of them. At a bakery on Oinoussa the proprietor discussed these new rules with us and was clearly in favour of them as a means of Greek economic recovery.
 
cmedsailor said:
Hmmm, probably the end result would be to discourage people visit Greece at all. What about the Italians who want to just sail across the Adriatica sea and visit the Ionian islands for a week or so during their summer cavations? Or similarly boats sailing from Israel, Turkey, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on. Will all these have to pay extra €200, €300 or whatever for a few days? This law really needs some thought.
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Indeed. The two previous versions allowed a period in Greek waters of 40 days, then 60 days, before the tax kicked in.

From my reading of the references which Pleias has supplied, this has been at least a four cornered argument over the last two years. The antagonists were maritime and tax authorities seeking higher income, tourist authorities worried that a tax will reduce visitor numbers ashore, marina and boat support industries who see fewer foreign boats using their services, and Greek boat owners with political influence who don't want to see their toys being taxed (boats over 24m don't seem to be covered by this proposal . . .)

I'm sure that's a simplification of the process. But one can see there's a lot of trade-off between different lobbies, and not too much detached economist input into the detail.

As you say, the law needs some more thought. Hopefully, it'll get it.
 
As others already advised, it pays to cool down and wait for the exact finally voted wording as at present it goes like “The proposed bla-bla, does not apply to professional recreational vessels, regardless of total length, to private motorized recreational vessels of an overall length up to ten (10) meters, as well as private sailboat recreational vessels of an overall length of up to twelve (12) meters, with a Greek or European flag, etc “
It also mentions options for partial stay.

Later editing
Pls disregard all above as this was previous law
 
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jimbaerselman;4456579 Robbery is the use of force said:
My boat is ashore in Preveza. If this charge becomes law before I can launch I am sure the boat yard will charge me the fee whether I like it or not. Or no launch. They already extract 10 euro's as permission to launch. Or no permission. I agree with Steve Cronin. The EU paid for the marina which are full of local boats, the EU taxpayer is bailing them out, and they also want the EU tourist to make up any difference between what they want and what they will be given.
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